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Poll

Simple Question: Does the OUM exist or has it died, defected or disappeared some time ago?

The OUM has completely died out and no longer exists.
0 (0%)
The OUM entirely defected and apostatized some time ago.
1 (6.3%)
The OUM may or may not exist, but it has disappeared and is invisible.
0 (0%)
The OUM continues in orthodox Catholic Bishops appointed by the Pope.
2 (12.5%)
The OUM can be found among Bishops without habitual ordinary jurisdiction.
6 (37.5%)
Other (please explain)
7 (43.8%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Author Topic: Where Exactly is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church Today?  (Read 14208 times)

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Where do you get the idea that the hierarchy is indefectible? Do you believe they're infallible too? If not, then how is a fallible hierarchy able to be indefectible?

From: Who Shall Ascend?

...Contrary to such reasoning, it is within the Conciliar Establishment that one finds the historical and structural continuity of the True Church; even though they are serving Satan, those who hold ecclesiastical offices hold them legitimately. Those who say otherwise have not proved that, because these men are apostates from the Faith, they cannot be considered to hold any offices.

"One who is no longer a Catholic," they say, "cannot possibly hold an office within the Church, nor exercise legitimate authority." No, even though these individuals have incurred the censures of the Church's law for heresy, apostasy, the desecration of the churches, the violation of the Sacraments, for these and similar crimes, they continue to be the legitimate
authorities of the Church. And since they do hold these offices, others who seek to interpose themselves into authority over the Catholic faithful, commit schismatical acts in doing so, and themselves incur the penalties of the Code. - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?
"The hierarchy of the Church, all the way up to the Pope, are serving Satan."

"The gates of Hell have not prevailed over the Church."

???

It is an unnecessary distinction or perhaps best left up to competent theologians to sort through some day.

The fact is, the hierarchy is not infallible, either in a council nor dispersed throughout the world - this idea is a major cause of confusion, particularly among sedes. Per V1, only the pope is infallible when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra.

Sedes believe LG 25 is a Church dogma - and it is a dogma - of the conciliar church, not the Catholic Church.They read "hierarchy" and "Magisterium" as one and the same, both infallible which is altogether wrong. So when they see the hierarchy spreading error, they say the infallible magisterium as defected - which is the completely wrong thinking inspired by the NO doctrine in LG 25. All it does is start debates about formal/material that has nothing to do with reality at all.  
There is no such organisation as the "Conciliar Church". If Vatican 2 was a valid council, then the so-called "Conciliar Church" IS the Catholic Church. If the post-V2 Popes were valid, then their proclamations, decrees, promulgated rites, etc. were all done for the Catholic Church. It is ridiculous to assert that the Popes could've accidentally created a second Church that they didn't know existed and then accidentally only issued their decrees, etc. for the "Conciliar Church" which they didn't even know existed, despite each one explicitly referring to the Catholic Church and their authority as its leader. 


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
There is no such organisation as the "Conciliar Church". If Vatican 2 was a valid council, then the so-called "Conciliar Church" IS the Catholic Church. If the post-V2 Popes were valid, then their proclamations, decrees, promulgated rites, etc. were all done for the Catholic Church. It is ridiculous to assert that the Popes could've accidentally created a second Church that they didn't know existed and then accidentally only issued their decrees, etc. for the "Conciliar Church" which they didn't even know existed, despite each one explicitly referring to the Catholic Church and their authority as its leader.

Indeed, Father Wathen rightly calls it the Conciliar "Establishment" as opposed to Church.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
There is no such organisation as the "Conciliar Church". If Vatican 2 was a valid council, then the so-called "Conciliar Church" IS the Catholic Church. If the post-V2 Popes were valid, then their proclamations, decrees, promulgated rites, etc. were all done for the Catholic Church. It is ridiculous to assert that the Popes could've accidentally created a second Church that they didn't know existed and then accidentally only issued their decrees, etc. for the "Conciliar Church" which they didn't even know existed, despite each one explicitly referring to the Catholic Church and their authority as its leader.
Oh, the conciliar church certainly does exist, as Fr. Wathen puts it in his book, Who Shall Ascend?:

....The reader is implored to believe that as it is in the spirit of Christian charity that we have been compelled to proclaim the Catholic Church to be the sole and exclusive instrument of salvation for men on earth, it is in the same spirit that we assert the major thesis of this third part, viz., the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, though it is within it, like a fifth column.....

It's worthy to note, that Fr. Wathen is actually only saying that which has previously been said by Pope St. Pius X, below in the pope's teaching from Pascendi Dominici Gregis, the only real difference is that today, they are no longer hid, but they are still   within:

Gravity of the Situation

2. That We make no delay in this matter is rendered necessary especially by the fact that the partisans of error are to be sought not only among the Church's open enemies; they lie hid, a thing to be deeply deplored and feared, in her very bosom and heart, and are the more mischievous, the less conspicuously they appear. We allude, Venerable Brethren, to many who belong to the Catholic laity, nay, and this is far more lamentable, to the ranks of the priesthood itself, who, feigning a love for the Church, lacking the firm protection of philosophy and theology, nay more, thoroughly imbued with the poisonous doctrines taught by the enemies of the Church, and lost to all sense of modesty, vaunt themselves as reformers of the Church; and, forming more boldly into line of attack, assail all that is most sacred in the work of Christ, not sparing even the person of the Divine Redeemer, whom, with sacrilegious daring, they reduce to a simple, mere man.....

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Sure, one can use the term "Conciliar Church" loosely, but the question is:  What is it?

Father Wathen agrees that whatever it is, it isn't the Catholic Church.