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Poll

Simple Question: Does the OUM exist or has it died, defected or disappeared some time ago?

The OUM has completely died out and no longer exists.
0 (0%)
The OUM entirely defected and apostatized some time ago.
1 (6.3%)
The OUM may or may not exist, but it has disappeared and is invisible.
0 (0%)
The OUM continues in orthodox Catholic Bishops appointed by the Pope.
2 (12.5%)
The OUM can be found among Bishops without habitual ordinary jurisdiction.
6 (37.5%)
Other (please explain)
7 (43.8%)

Total Members Voted: 12

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Author Topic: Where Exactly is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church Today?  (Read 14156 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Where Exactly is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church Today?
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2019, 04:15:49 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 04, 2019, 03:30:55 PM
Do you mean who exercises the OUM?

That is clearly defined by Vatican I.  Pope and the bishops teaching unanimously in union with him, when they teach something as being de fide, cannot err.
^^^^ Novus Ordo doctrine - see Lumen Gentium 25.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Where Exactly is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church Today?
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2019, 04:18:41 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on April 04, 2019, 04:14:47 PM
...Contrary to such reasoning, it is within the Conciliar Establishment that one finds the historical and structural continuity of the True Church; even though they are serving Satan, those who hold ecclesiastical offices hold them legitimately. Those who say otherwise have not proved that, because these men are apostates from the Faith, they cannot be considered to hold any offices.

Father Wathen stopped just one step short of sedeprivationism.  He describes the material continuity, which he calls "the historical and structural continuity".  Next logical step is that even though they maintain this material continuity, they do NOT maintain the formal continuity (because they no longer hold the same faith).

Sedeprivationism is also the key to resolving the strange "head of two Churches" language used by Bishop Williamson.  How can one man be the head of two churches?  It can only be through some distinction.  He's materially head of the Catholic Church but formally head of the Conciliar Establishment.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Where Exactly is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church Today?
« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2019, 04:22:16 PM »
You see, when you miss and fail to articulate a necessary distinction, it always looks like you're contradicting yourself.  What they're all missing is the formal/material distinction originally articulated by St. Robert Bellarmine and masterfully applied to the current crisis by Bishop Guerard des Lauriers.
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: Where Exactly is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church Today?
« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2019, 04:23:12 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 04, 2019, 04:18:41 PM
Father Wathen stopped just one step short of sedeprivationism.  He describes the material continuity, which he calls "the historical and structural continuity".  Next logical step is that even though they maintain this material continuity, they do NOT maintain the formal continuity (because they no longer hold the same faith).
The question was, "where is the legitimate teaching body of the Church?" I presumed he is asking where the legitimate hierarchy is - which Fr. Wathen correctly answers.

You can go off rails with formal/material all you want, but Fr. Wathen answered the clear question with a clear answer.
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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Re: Where Exactly is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church Today?
« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2019, 04:33:12 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on April 04, 2019, 04:22:16 PM
You see, when you miss and fail to articulate a necessary distinction, it always looks like you're contradicting yourself.  What they're all missing is the formal/material distinction originally articulated by St. Robert Bellarmine and masterfully applied to the current crisis by Bishop Guerard des Lauriers.
It is an unnecessary distinction or perhaps best left up to competent theologians to sort through some day.

The fact is, the hierarchy is not infallible, either in a council nor dispersed throughout the world - this idea is a major cause of confusion, particularly among sedes. Per V1, only the pope is infallible when he defines a doctrine ex cathedra.

Sedes believe LG 25 is a Church dogma - and it is a dogma - of the conciliar church, not the Catholic Church.They read "hierarchy" and "Magisterium" as one and the same, both infallible which is altogether wrong. So when they see the hierarchy spreading error, they say the infallible magisterium as defected - which is the completely wrong thinking inspired by the NO doctrine in LG 25. All it does is start debates about formal/material that has nothing to do with reality at all.  


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