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Poll

Simple Question: Does the OUM exist or has it died, defected or disappeared some time ago?

The OUM has completely died out and no longer exists.
0 (0%)
The OUM entirely defected and apostatized some time ago.
1 (6.3%)
The OUM may or may not exist, but it has disappeared and is invisible.
0 (0%)
The OUM continues in orthodox Catholic Bishops appointed by the Pope.
2 (12.5%)
The OUM can be found among Bishops without habitual ordinary jurisdiction.
6 (37.5%)
Other (please explain)
7 (43.8%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Author Topic: Where Exactly is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church Today?  (Read 5496 times)

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Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Stubborn, Magisterium simply means, Teaching Authority. For e.g. Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis uses Pope Pius XII speaks of the Ordinary Magisterium, the Ordinary Teaching Authority, "these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority" (p.20)

    In the citation you provide from Pope Bl. Pius IX, "the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world", is a reference to the Ordinary and Universal Teaching Authority of the Church. Notice that the criterion of universality given by Pope Pius IX is that it is that of the Church spread over the whole world, that is what universality in Ordinary and Universal Magisterium means.

    Another example from Van Noort, cited by Salza and Siscoe: ""Meantime, notice that the Church possesses infallibility not only when she is defining some matters in solemn fashion, but also when she is exercising the full weight of her authority through her ordinary and universal teaching. Consequently, we must hold with an absolute assent, which we call ‘ecclesiastical faith,’ the following theological truths: (a) those which the Magisterium has infallibly defined in solemn fashion; (b) those which the ordinary magisterium dispersed throughout the world unmistakably proposes to its members as something to be held (tenendas). So, for example, one must give an absolute assent to the proposition: ‘Pius XII is [present tense] the legitimate successor of St. Peter’; similarly … one must give an absolute assent to the proposition: ‘Pius XII possesses the primacy of jurisdiction over the entire Church.’ For — skipping the question of how it begins to be proven infallibly for the first time that this individual was legitimately elected to take St. Peter’s place — when someone has been constantly acting as Pope and has theoretically and practically been recognized as such by the bishops and by the universal Church, it is clear that the ordinary and universal magisterium is giving an utterly clear-cut witness to the legitimacy of his succession." (Sources of Revelation, p. 265) http://www.trueorfalsepope.com/p/peaceful-and-universal-acceptance-of.html

    After we identify the OUM, the next stage is to observe (1) it is impossible that it has collectively defected into heresy or apostasy. (2) it is impossible that all members of the episcopal college have died without replacement. The implications of this for (1) the validity of the new rite (2) the SV question etc, can then be more closely studied.

    Ladislaus claims, "Right now, since the Holy See is vacant, the OUM is not being exercised.", but that begs the question. The Conclusion is assumed in the Premise. Rather, since the OUM teaches that the Holy See is occupied, it follows as infallibly true that in fact it is.

    See this book: https://archive.org/details/outlinesofdogmat01hunt/page/n6 " ... it affords an answer to a much vaunted objection to the claims of the Catholic Church, put forward by writers who think that they find proof in history that the election of a certain Pope was simoniacal and invalid, and that the successor was elected by Cardinals who owed their own appointment to the simoniacal intruder; from which it is gathered that the Papacy has been vacant ever since that time. A volume might be occupied if we attempted to expose all the frailness of the argument which is supposed to lead to this startling conclusion; but it is enough to say that if the Bishops agree in recognizing a certain man as Pope, they are certainly right, for otherwise the body of the Bishops would be separated from their head, and the Divine Constitution of the Church would be ruined." See also the citation from Van Noort by Salza and Siscoe on their website.

    The Teaching Church's Indefectibility prevents it from wrongly recognizing its Head. If we could agree on that, we could study the other implications of Indefectibility. SV's raise various objections to R&R, and R&R raise various objections to SVism.

    Neither position holds the complete truth. R&R is closer, in so far as it at least recognizes an OUM. But saying the entire OUM of the Church today can collectively fall into heresy, just so long as all the Bishops who exercise the OUM do not die, the as some (not all) R&R do, is also mistaken. A careful study of these things will show R&R needs slight modification.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.


    Online Stubborn

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  • Stubborn, Magisterium simply means, Teaching Authority. For e.g. Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis uses Pope Pius XII speaks of the Ordinary Magisterium, the Ordinary Teaching Authority, "these matters are taught with the ordinary teaching authority" (p.20)

    In the citation you provide from Pope Bl. Pius IX, "the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world", is a reference to the Ordinary and Universal Teaching Authority of the Church. Notice that the criterion of universality given by Pope Pius IX is that it is that of the Church spread over the whole world, that is what universality in Ordinary and Universal Magisterium means.
    Here again, you ignore point #2. You neglected to quote the part which is the most pertinent to the discussion, namely, "...by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith."  

    "Universal and constant consent" means "always and everywhere since the time of the Apostles". This is the attribute of the Church's magisterium.  It is impossible to fit this actual meaning into your idea of what the magisterium even is and makes the question of where it might currently be located altogether ridiculous.

    With your idea of what the Church's magisterium even is, there are only two possible alternatives - both false. Since the magisterium really is always infallible: 1) Either the hierarchy per LG 25 is infallible and we are all bound submission to and to follow them in their novus ordo religion, or 2) the Church has defected.  



    Quote
    Another example from Van Noort, cited by Salza and Siscoe: ""Meantime, notice that the Church possesses infallibility not only when she is defining some matters in solemn fashion, but also when she is exercising the full weight of her authority through her ordinary and universal teaching. Consequently, we must hold with an absolute assent, which we call ‘ecclesiastical faith,’ the following theological truths: (a) those which the [solemn or extraordinary] Magisterium has infallibly defined in solemn fashion; (b) those which the ordinary magisterium dispersed throughout the world unmistakably proposes to its members as something to be held (tenendas).
    This is true. Here Van Noort speaks of the three Church's magisteriums, her ordinary magisterium, her universal magisterium and her solemn magisterium, i.e. her ordinary teachings, her universal teachings and her teachings taught in an extraordinary manner, i.e. teachings defined ex cathedra by the pope.

    Within the universal magisterium is the ordinary and extraordinary magisterium and yes, we absolutely do owe our assent of faith to these teachings because they are the truth, and it is Catholic truth that binds us. But these teachings are not the hierarchy. The hierarchy can go off the deep end as reality demonstrates, and when that happens we must not follow. It is the truth that is *always*  binding, the truth is eternal, the truth can never go off the deep end, which is why we are bound to the truth, not the hierarchy.

    We are bound no less by either the Church's Ordinary Magisterium, Universal Magisterium, or her Extraordinary Magisterium. No less because what we're bound by is Catholic truth, it does not matter the method, it is the matter, the truth that binds us.

    Now if you are a believer that LG 25 is in fact a Catholic doctrine and the hierarchy is in fact the magisterium, then you may must flush and denounce Catholic truth, and follow the  always infallible hierarchy no matter what they preach - just double check to make sure whatever it is they preach, that they are unanimous and in union with the pope with their preaching.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Climacus

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  • Within the universal magisterium is the ordinary and extraordinary magisterium and yes, we absolutely do owe our assent of faith to these teachings because they are the truth, and it is Catholic truth that binds us. But these teachings are not the hierarchy. The hierarchy can go off the deep end as reality demonstrates, and when that happens we must not follow. It is the truth that is *always*  binding, the truth is eternal, the truth can never go off the deep end, which is why we are bound to the truth, not the hierarchy.

    We are bound no less by either the Church's Ordinary Magisterium, Universal Magisterium, or her Extraordinary Magisterium. No less because what we're bound by is Catholic truth, it does not matter the method, it is the matter, the truth that binds us.

    Now if you are a believer that LG 25 is in fact a Catholic doctrine and the hierarchy is in fact the magisterium, then you may must flush and denounce Catholic truth, and follow the  always infallible hierarchy no matter what they preach - just double check to make sure whatever it is they preach, that they are unanimous and in union with the pope with their preaching.
    The first bold sentence is false, at least in the way implied by Stubborn. The Roman Pontiff binds Catholics. He is the "the permanent principle of the unities of faith and communion and their visible foundation."
    The second clause is also false.  The hierarchy cannot "go off the deep end" or the Church defects.  If that is in fact what you believe occurred then go all the way with it and accept the defection.  
    The third sentence is also heresy.  The Catholic Church is a society governed by living members and Catholics are absolutely bound to them.    
    The last sentence is partially true.  Catholics must follow the hierarchy and remain in union with the pope.  This is Catholicism.  

    Online Stubborn

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  • The first bold sentence is false, at least in the way implied by Stubborn. The Roman Pontiff binds Catholics. He is the "the permanent principle of the unities of faith and communion and their visible foundation."
    The second clause is also false.  The hierarchy cannot "go off the deep end" or the Church defects.  If that is in fact what you believe occurred then go all the way with it and accept the defection.  
    The third sentence is also heresy.  The Catholic Church is a society governed by living members and Catholics are absolutely bound to them.    
    The last sentence is partially true.  Catholics must follow the hierarchy and remain in union with the pope.  This is Catholicism.  
    Thanks for making my point re: LG 25. So you are a NOer I take it?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Ladislaus

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  • Ladislaus claims, "Right now, since the Holy See is vacant, the OUM is not being exercised.", but that begs the question. The Conclusion is assumed in the Premise. Rather, since the OUM teaches that the Holy See is occupied, it follows as infallibly true that in fact it is.

    That's circular reasoning and begging the question on YOUR part and not mine.  I've stated my reasons for why I believe that the Holy See is only doubtfully exercising any formal authority.  These are independent of the OUM question.

    OUM "teaches" nothing of the sort.  We have a significant number of people who are nominally Catholic, but most of whom are actually bereft of the Catholic faith, who think that Bergoglio is the Catholic pope.  We've already discussed this.  Not to mention that you keep blundering the definition of OUM.  You clearly have no idea what it actually is ... as evidenced by your poll questions.

    You assume that the Novus Ordo hierarchy exercise the OUM in order to prove that they exercise the OUM.


    Online Ladislaus

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  • To clear up the mess you've caused --

    the hierarchy are NOT the OUM, they may or may not EXERCISE OUM

    Generally, the hierarchy exercise OM (without the U).  When the hierarchy agree on teaching a "matter of faith" in a constant, universal, and undisputed way IN UNION WITH THE POPE ... then they exercise OUM, which is infallible.

    Simply because a man is in office doesn't mean that he chooses to exercise ANY teaching authority.  We've had popes who taught absolutely nothing but preferred instead to give themselves to their own worldly pursuits (hunting or chasing mistresses).

    So the men in office are merely ORGANS of the OM, in potency.  It's only when they actually teach that they exercise Magisterium.

    You keep confounding the office holders with their active use of teaching authority.  This teaching authority exists in potency only, and may or may not even be activated.

    But as to what constitutes an infallible definition or teaching of the OUM, that can be a little murky sometimes --

    Catholic Encyclopedia:
    Quote
    And while for subsequent ages down to our own day it continues to be theoretically true that the Churchmay, by the exercise of this ordinary teaching authority arrive at a final and infallible decision regarding doctrinal questions, it is true at the same time that in practice it may be impossible to prove conclusively that such unanimity as may exist has a strictly definitive value in any particular case, unless it has been embodied in a decree of an ecuмenical council, or in the ex cathedra teaching of the pope, or, at least, in some definite formula such as the Athanasian Creed. Hence, for practical purposes and in so far as the special question of infallibility is concerned, we may neglect the so called magisterium ordinarium ("ordinary magisterium") and confine our attention to ecuмenical councils and the pope.

    Similarly, when there's no Pope, such as in sedevacantist periods, the OUM continues to exist IN POTENCY, and that's why the Magisterium does not defect simply because there's no Pope who happens to be formally exercising it.  It's no different than if there WERE a Pope in office who chose not to teach anything.

    So you're confounding authority in potency with authority in act.

    Offline forlorn

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  • I'm disappointed to see 5 people (poll result) have admitted to objective heresy. Teaching and Governing are merely aspects of the same Office. Without being appointed to Episcopal Office by the Pope, one cannot exercise Ordinary Jurisdiction or Ordinary teaching authority.
    This coming from a man who attends SSPX masses. You're so self-contradictory it's actually painful to read. 

    Offline Pax Vobis

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  • Quote
    Teaching and Governing are merely aspects of the same Office.

    So what?  The teaching office is related to the spiritual/doctrinal/Divine/unchanging nature of the papacy, while the Governing is related to the human/fallible/can-be-changed portion of it (i.e. Christ gave Peter the power to "bind and loose").

    The OUM is infallible and part of the Teaching office of the papacy.  The OM can either be infallible or fallible, depending on how's it's used.  The OM is infallible when it reiterates what has "always been taught" as +JPII did when he reiterated the bad on women priests.  The OM is fallible when it is not clear that what is being taught is Traditional, Apostolic and "universally believed" as many of the encyclicals of the post-V2 decades have been, since they are filled with a mix of orthodoxy and novelty and thus their ambiguity undermine their authority.

    The OUM necessarily is obliged to be believed with certainty of faith, since it is a doctrinal, Apostolic teaching of the highest degree, infallibly protected.  The OM has varying, multiple levels of authority attached to it, depending on how the pope teaches, what he references and if he makes use of Apostolic teaching authority, or if he just teaches as a normal Bishop and private theologian.  Plus, since the 50s, the definitions and labels for what the magisterium actually is, have changed, been debated and further examined.  To date, the Church has not clearly explained the various levels of the magisterium.

    Suffice it to say, the Church has an obligation to make it VERY CLEAR that teaching x, y or z is obligatory and to what degree.  If they do not, we are allowed to ask for clarification because Scripture says that "there is nothing new under the sun" and apparent novelties have a right to be challenged until the pope teaches with authority.  Those heretics who ran V2 used the faithful's trusting nature and docility against them, to imply that V2 was doctrinal, when we now know (from many statements from those in attendance) that it was anything but, and its heretical novelties should be done away with and anathematized...which a future orthodox pope will do someday.


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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  • The hierarchy is teaching a different gospel and it isn’t good. 
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Nishant Xavier

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  • Notice the way Msgr. Noort says, "the ordinary and universal magisterium is giving an utterly clear-cut witness to the legitimacy of his succession." - so Teaching Body, Hierarchy, OUM can be used synonymously.

    But let's rephrase the question, then: where are the Ordinaries of the Church? Only those who are Ordinaries (1) can exercise Ordinary Jurisdiction by virtue of their Ruling Office/Ruling Authority (2) can exercise Ordinary Teaching Authority by virtue of that same Office.

    Quote from: Pax Vobis
    So what?  The teaching office is related to the spiritual/doctrinal/Divine/unchanging nature of the papacy, while the Governing is related to the human/fallible/can-be-changed portion of it (i.e. Christ gave Peter the power to "bind and loose").
    Not so. Read the citation from the CE again. When Vatican I defined the supreme teaching authority of the Roman Pontiff, it also defined his universal jurisdiction. The two are related, as the CE puts it, "Since, however, the teaching of the Church is authoritative, the teaching authority is traditionally included in the ruling authority". They are only One Office, its governmental aspects and its teaching aspects are inter-connected.

    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Similarly, when there's no Pope, such as in sedevacantist periods, the OUM continues to exist IN POTENCY
    The Bishops retain the powers they have already received from the Pope before he died. "Then indeed the divine law and institution of perpetuity remains, and by the same reason the right and duty in the Church of procuring the succession according to the established law; there remain also the participations in the powers [of the papacy] to the extent they are communicable to others [e.g. to the Cardinals or bishops], and have been communicated by the successor of Peter while still alive, or have been lawfully established and not abrogated [thus the jurisdiction of bishops, granted by the Pope, does not cease when he dies]; but the highest power itself, together with its rights and prerogatives, which can in no way exist except in the one individual heir of Peter, now actually belong to no one while the See is vacant." (Cardinal Franzelin, VACANCY OF THE APOSTOLIC SEE, no. 15) How will you explain what Van Noort said?

    Quote
    You assume that the Novus Ordo hierarchy exercise the OUM
    The Catholic Hierarchy is identified by the Bishops appointed to office by the Pope. Where are they, otherwise? There's no Hierarchy either?

    Quote from: Stubborn
    We are bound no less by either the Church's Ordinary Magisterium, Universal Magisterium, or her Extraordinary Magisterium. No less because what we're bound by is Catholic truth, it does not matter the method, it is the matter, the truth that binds us.
    You keep citing Lumen Gentium 25, but you state something not stated there. When something is taught by the Extraordinary Magisterium (e.g. Trent), we owe it the assent of divine and Catholic Faith. When something is taught by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium (e.g. all the Bishops stating the Assumption of Mother Mary is divinely revealed dogma), we again owe it the assent of divine and Catholic Faith. This is clearly taught in Vatican I, and is cited by Pope Pius XII to that effect. When something is taught by the Ordinary Non-Infallible Authentic Magisterium, we give it a prudential and conditional assent called religious submission. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsequium_religiosum

    Quote
    Since the magisterium really is always infallible
    Magisterial statements are not always infallible, but they are generally safe. Not everything becomes infallible just because it occurs once in a Papal Encyclical. There are many theological grades of certitude like doctrina catholica, proxima fidei etc before a doctrine becomes de fide. You are attributing to me something you said above, "We are bound no less by either the Church's Ordinary Magisterium, Universal Magisterium, or her Extraordinary Magisterium." I don't think that's right. Assent of divine and Catholic Faith we give to an ex cathedra and infallible teaching, and Religious Submission we give to all teaching that is not definitive or infallible.
    "We wish also to make amends for the insults to which Your Vicar on earth and Your Priests are everywhere subjected [above all by schismatic sedevacantists - Nishant Xavier], for the profanation, by conscious neglect or Terrible Acts of Sacrilege, of the very Sacrament of Your Divine Love; and lastly for the Public Crimes of Nations who resist the Rights and The Teaching Authority of the Church which You have founded." - Act of Reparation to the Sacred Heart of Lord Jesus.

    Online Stubborn

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  • Notice the way Msgr. Noort says, "the ordinary and universal magisterium is giving an utterly clear-cut witness to the legitimacy of his succession." - so Teaching Body, Hierarchy, OUM can be used synonymously.

    But let's rephrase the question, then: where are the Ordinaries of the Church? Only those who are Ordinaries (1) can exercise Ordinary Jurisdiction by virtue of their Ruling Office/Ruling Authority (2) can exercise Ordinary Teaching Authority by virtue of that same Office.
    I disagree it can be used synonymously because using it that way has led the vast majority astray because truth does not matter, the (Modernist) hierarchy does. The teaching body is the hierarchy, not the UOM - again, "universal" always includes the attribute of time, it means "since the time of the Apostles and forever", magisterium = teaching, not people.

    I think Sheeben defines it best (emphasis in the original):

    "III. The act of promulgation must be a teaching (magisterium), and not a mere statement; this teaching must witness to its identity with the original Revelation, i.e. it must always show that what is taught is identical with what was revealed; it must be a "teaching with authority" - that is, it must command the submission of the mind, because otherwise the unity and universality of the Faith could not be attained." - Scheeben




    Quote
    You keep citing Lumen Gentium 25, but you state something not stated there. When something is taught by the Extraordinary Magisterium (e.g. Trent), we owe it the assent of divine and Catholic Faith. When something is taught by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium (e.g. all the Bishops stating the Assumption of Mother Mary is divinely revealed dogma), we again owe it the assent of divine and Catholic Faith. This is clearly taught in Vatican I, and is cited by Pope Pius XII to that effect. When something is taught by the Ordinary Non-Infallible Authentic Magisterium, we give it a prudential and conditional assent called religious submission. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsequium_religiosum
    I cite LG 25 because that is the gospel you are preaching but apparently don't even realize it. You are preaching that whatever the bishops teach in unison and union with the pope is infallible - which is altogether false and is strictly and only a NO doctrine defined in LG 25.

    The extraordinary magisterium is a defined dogma. Period. Using Sheeben's above quote, "it [teaching] must always show that what is taught is identical with what was revealed, it must be a teaching with authority, it must command submission of the mind...."

    Note he says "what is taught", not "who teaches it".

    To make your quote make sense, it would read:

    Quote
    When something is taught by the Extraordinary Magisterium a Council (e.g. Trent), we owe it the assent of divine and Catholic Faith. When something is taught by the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium Hierarchy (e.g. all the Bishops stating the Assumption of Mother Mary is divinely revealed dogma), we again owe it the assent of divine and Catholic Faith.

    I say: This is conditional upon that the teaching "must always show that what is taught is identical with what was revealed, it must be a teaching with authority..."
    The bishops did not define the Assumption, the pope did that when he defined the doctrine ex cathedra, which doctrine is identical with what was revealed because the Apostles were eyewitnesses to the Assumption and that event account has been taught, handed down since then.

    The bishops stating that the Assumption is a revealed dogma are merely carrying out their mission in teaching the faith, but them making the statement did not make the Assumption divinely revealed dogma.



    Quote
    Magisterial statements are not always infallible, but they are always safe. Not everything becomes infallible just because it occurs once in a Papal Encyclical. There are many theological grades of certitude like doctrina catholica, proxima fidei etc before a doctrine becomes de fide.
    Here you're using it synonymously again proves that to do so only serves as the instrument of confusion. This instrument you are using is one of the main instruments that was used by the enemy which helped get us in this mess to begin with - and is still effective today as you are demonstrating.

    Papal or hierarchical statements are not always infallible and these days, are in fact, mostly lies or are interwoven with heresy and lies. This is merely common knowledge.

    OTOH, the Church is Christ, the Church's teachings (Magisterium) is always infallible because it is always the truth, because it comes from Christ we know that it is always the truth because it always shows that what is taught is identical with what was revealed. This is always true whether it's the Church's Extraordinary, Ordinary or Universal Magisterium.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online Ladislaus

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  • Notice the way Msgr. Noort says, "the ordinary and universal magisterium is giving an utterly clear-cut witness to the legitimacy of his succession." - so Teaching Body, Hierarchy, OUM can be used synonymously.

    :facepalm:

    Uhm, no they can't.

    Online Ladislaus

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  • I agree about the infallible safety of the Magisterium.  And if Xavier believes it too, then he's unquestionably in schism.

    You know, the very raison d'etra of the Traditional movement is that there have been errors taught at Vatican II and in the subsequent papal teaching, and that we cannot accept these without endangering our faith, i.e. that this teaching is not in fact safe.  So if you 1) are a Traditional Catholic (believe that the V2 teaching is harmful) and 2) believe in the infallible safety of the Magisterium, then you MUST logically conclude that the V2 Magisterium is not in fact the Catholic Magisterium.  But the more you post, the more it sounds like you're not actually a Traditional Catholics, but rather a sentimentalist who finds edification in the pre-Vatican II liturgy and spirituality, and who opted for SSPX over FSSP only because the former was allegedly promoted by some exorcism and because SSPX has a bigger/stronger organization.  You really are a trainwreck, XavierSem.

    Online Stubborn

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  • I agree about the infallible safety of the Magisterium.  And if Xavier believes it too, then he's unquestionably in schism.
    Of course we have absolute certainty regarding infallible safety of the Church's Magisterium, that is not at issue, what's at issue here is like all things NO, the multi-meaning of the word "Magisterium" - which Xavier wants to use synonymous with the pope and hierarchy so as to confuse the confused even further.  


    Quote
    You know, the very raison d'etra of the Traditional movement is that there have been errors taught at Vatican II and in the subsequent papal teaching, and that we cannot accept these without endangering our faith, i.e. that this teaching is not in fact safe.  So if you 1) are a Traditional Catholic (believe that the V2 teaching is harmful) and 2) believe in the infallible safety of the Magisterium, then you MUST logically conclude that the V2 Magisterium is not in fact the Catholic Magisterium.
    Your first sentence is incomplete. This is because errors were taught decades before, or well in advance of V2 and are in fact errors which helped usher in V2. One the errors is the idea that the Church's magisterium, which actually is always 100% infallible, is the pope and/or hierarchy.

    They took a true meaning and misapplied it to the pope and hierarchy - and nearly everyone not only bought off on it, they think it is some church doctrine or a defined dogma, which it is, of the conciliar church.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline forlorn

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  • Of course we have absolute certainty regarding infallible safety of the Church's Magisterium, that is not at issue, what's at issue here is like all things NO, the multi-meaning of the word "Magisterium" - which Xavier wants to use synonymous with the pope and hierarchy so as to confuse the confused even further.  

    Your first sentence is incomplete. This is because errors were taught decades before, or well in advance of V2 and are in fact errors which helped usher in V2. One the errors is the idea that the Church's magisterium, which actually is always 100% infallible, is the pope and/or hierarchy.

    They took a true meaning and misapplied it to the pope and hierarchy - and nearly everyone not only bought off on it, they think it is some church doctrine or a defined dogma, which it is, of the conciliar church.
    Don't conflate Magisterium with the infallible Magisterium. Much of the Magisterium is fallible, but it's all infallibly safe. Meaning it can be wrong, but it can't lead you into heresy or rejection of the Faith. And yet today we have the Pope and the Bishops teaching heresy.

    And here we have XavierSem who tells us that Vatican 2 was a-ok and that the current hierarchy are valid both formally and materially, and yet refuses to submit to that hierarchy and obstinately ignores their orders. Making himself a schismatic.