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Poll

Simple Question: Does the OUM exist or has it died, defected or disappeared some time ago?

The OUM has completely died out and no longer exists.
0 (0%)
The OUM entirely defected and apostatized some time ago.
1 (6.3%)
The OUM may or may not exist, but it has disappeared and is invisible.
0 (0%)
The OUM continues in orthodox Catholic Bishops appointed by the Pope.
2 (12.5%)
The OUM can be found among Bishops without habitual ordinary jurisdiction.
6 (37.5%)
Other (please explain)
7 (43.8%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Author Topic: Where Exactly is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church Today?  (Read 14044 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Even the Wikipedia the Jew-Encyclopedia is honest enough as to recognise the second requirement, and yet most Novus Ordites aren't. However, the Magisterium refers not only to the Church's ancient teachings but also to the teaching authority of the Church and those who have it. That being the hierarchy of the Church, whom the indefectibility promise also applies to. If almost the entirety of the Church's hierarchy, including the Pope, teach heresy for decades - is that not defection? Xavier's question still stands, where is the legitimate teaching body of the Church? Does it rest in the hands of Pope Francis and his Liberal goons? Bishops in the SSPX, or the Thuc line, or... etc.

Absolutely.  Some seem to think that the mere existence of the Church and the Magisterium are all that's required for indefectibility.  But the Church cannot defect in her MISSION either.

Catholic Encyclopedia:
Quote
Among the prerogatives conferred on His Church by Christ is the gift of indefectibility. By this term is signified, not merely that the Church will persist to the end of time, but further, that it will preserve unimpaired its essential characteristics. The Church can never undergo any constitutional change which will make it, as a social organism, something different from what it was originally. It can never become corrupt in faith or in morals; nor can it ever lose the Apostolic hierarchy, or the sacraments through which Christ communicates grace to men.

So the R&R emphasize "merely that the Church will persist to the end of time", while SVs emphasize that it can "never become corrupt in faith or in morals".

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Right. Who are these people presently.  

Right now, since the Holy See is vacant, the OUM is not being exercised.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
What XavierSem is bungling through attempting to articulate is to ask whether any organs of the Magisterium continue to exist today.

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
This doesn't answer the question.  The indefectibility of the Church isn't constrained to a book of official teachings (doctrine); it also pertains to a living magisterium (and other things).  
Not sure how one could think that; "...all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world etc...." could possibly fit in, or even is in a book.

Catholics do not doubt the Church's indefectibility, rather, the Church's indefectibility is foundational to the faith. Those that have little or no faith, they doubt the Church's indefectibility, precisely because they have little or no faith in the Church's indefectibility.

Magisterium = teachings, not people, not hierarchy. Living magisterium = Ordinary magisterium, which is the day to day teachings of the Church - that's what the Church does, it teaches us how to get to heaven - which, because they are necessarily teachings of the Church's Universal and/or Extraordinary Magisterium, the Church's Ordinary Magisterium's teachings are also infallible.

Infallible = indefectible. Indefectibility means, simply, that in the end, the Church will be victorious over hell.  

Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Even the Wikipedia the Jew-Encyclopedia is honest enough as to recognise the second requirement, and yet most Novus Ordites aren't. However, the Magisterium refers not only to the Church's ancient teachings but also to the teaching authority of the Church and those who have it. That being the hierarchy of the Church, whom the indefectibility promise also applies to. If almost the entirety of the Church's hierarchy, including the Pope, teach heresy for decades - is that not defection? Xavier's question still stands, where is the legitimate teaching body of the Church? Does it rest in the hands of Pope Francis and his Liberal goons? Bishops in the SSPX, or the Thuc line, or... etc.
Where do you get the idea that the hierarchy is indefectible? Do you believe they're infallible too? If not, then how is a fallible hierarchy able to be indefectible?

From: Who Shall Ascend?

...Contrary to such reasoning, it is within the Conciliar Establishment that one finds the historical and structural continuity of the True Church; even though they are serving Satan, those who hold ecclesiastical offices hold them legitimately. Those who say otherwise have not proved that, because these men are apostates from the Faith, they cannot be considered to hold any offices.

"One who is no longer a Catholic," they say, "cannot possibly hold an office within the Church, nor exercise legitimate authority." No, even though these individuals have incurred the censures of the Church's law for heresy, apostasy, the desecration of the churches, the violation of the Sacraments, for these and similar crimes, they continue to be the legitimate
authorities of the Church. And since they do hold these offices, others who seek to interpose themselves into authority over the Catholic faithful, commit schismatical acts in doing so, and themselves incur the penalties of the Code. - Fr. Wathen, Who Shall Ascend?