Who (SSPX, Independent or Sedevacantist) will be in a better position -- who will have formed their faithful/clergy better -- for the post-Crisis era? That is, which side will give birth to less schismatic groups?

Who will have REALLY kept the Faith whole and inviolate, including the doctrine of the Papacy? Who will be accustomed to following orders, not being a maverick, etc.?

Those who are their own personal pope will have the hardest time.

It seems to me that Sedevacantist faithful, priests, and bishops will have a hard time putting on a yoke that they have never worn. Can you imagine Fr. Cekada taking a position in a parish "somewhere" and having to follow orders from a bishop that isn't his personal friend? Having to live on $35,000 a year, which would require a huge drop in his standard of living? But independent priests everywhere would no longer be able to run the whole show. That would take some getting used to, and many would fall to the temptation of schism.

One small example: Right now, an independent priest can wear a clerical suit or a cassock -- it depends on how "faithful" or "traditional" he feels like being. But someday, a restored Catholic Church might require the cassock for every priest.

There would be dozens of things like this.

SSPX faithful, even priests and bishops, wouldn't find anything different. They will be well-equipped for life after the crisis. The priests would continue to follow orders. Dallas, TX? Yes, father. India? Yes, father.

That tells me that the SSPX has a better stance vis-a-vis the Crisis, since it allows them to fit into a "normal Catholic Church" situation with less risk of schism.

When Peter II is elected, the Church will be reconstituted or, rather, recalled from this diaspora.  Even if only 1% of those currently in the Novus Ordo retain the faith, they would far outnumber current Traditional Catholics.  And there will be many converts as well.  Those who know the voice of The Shepherd and have have been scattered will be recalled into the One Fold from all quarters.

Just because the SSPX has a certain autocephalous obedience structure, that doesn't mean current SSPX adherents will retain the correct sensus Catholicus--which is my concern.  Autocephalous obedience structures are usually based on artificial principles of unity--usually personality cults (such as the figure of Archbishop Lefebvre).  Particularly troubling is an SSPX obedience structure in light of SSPX teaching that it's perfectly normal to be in chronic disoebedience to a legitimate pope--all the while demanding strict obedience.  Many a priest has left due to the contradiction of demanding obedience while being disobedient.

Will SSPX adherents have the proper submission of intellect and will to the teaching of Peter II--especially if he comes out and condemns BoD or NFP?  Or will they second-guess and question the magisterium?  Will sedevacantists accept such teaching or will they declare the See vacant again?  See my problem with both sides?  [I don't mean to argue BoD or NFP here--just substitute any other controverted theological matter here.]

Granted a certain correction was clearly in order with regard to what could be considered an excessively worshipful attitude towards popes before Vatican II.  But have we gone too far?

When Peter II issues an encyclical, how will it be received by former SSPXers or former sedevacantists?  Time will tell.

Among other concerns about SSPX is that they are content to turn back the clock to the magical year of 1962 while at the same time promoting many of the attitudes and changes that LED to this crisis in the first place.  SSPX promotes the Pius XII/Bugnini liturgical changes of the 60s as well as "Dialogue" Masses, etc.  I wonder why the Indult and Motu have also chosen the magical 1962 as well.  In its tremendous hostility towards "Feeneyism" and promotion of NFP, the SSPX holds many of the principles which led almost inexorably to Vatican II.  So the SSPX has simply butt-scooted a couple steps back up this downward slide into V2, but they remain in the same downward trajectory that led to it in the first place.

All of which makes me wonder whether the SSPX has in fact been taken over and turned into the controlled opposition.  Was Bishop Fellay's job to neutralize the Traditional movement and bring it back into the V2 fold?

I recently listened to a sermon by Father Neal Webster in which he recounts speaking to an old Polish bishop. This bishop told him that the Communists know that there will be opposition to their agenda, so they set about from the beginning to organize the opposition in such a way as to neutralize it and rein it in--the principle of controlled opposition.  He said that it was their well-known standard modus operandi.

We need to be as wise as serpents in this crisis and not get snookered in by the likes of a Bishop Fellay.

Excellent thread!

We need to be as wise as serpents in this crisis and not get snookered in by

 :devil2:

That is why, I think this forum is so valuable right now, exchanging thoughts, prayers and ideas.  

Personally, I think the supernatural event will be so spectacular that we will all fall in line, and if there be a few Judas's in the mix, God will deal with them too!

Quote from: Ladislaus

I recently listened to a sermon by Father Neal Webster...

 We need to be as wise as serpents in this crisis and not get snookered in by the likes of a Bishop Fellay.

We need to be as wise as serpents in this crisis and also not get snookered in by the likes of a Bishop Neal Webster!

Is Bp. Webster doing the Voices in the Wilderness blog?

Quote from: Roman Catholic

Quote from: Ladislaus

I recently listened to a sermon by Father Neal Webster...

 We need to be as wise as serpents in this crisis and not get snookered in by the likes of a Bishop Fellay.

We need to be as wise as serpents in this crisis and also not get snookered in by the likes of a Bishop Neal Webster!

Is Bp. Webster doing the Voices in the Wilderness blog?

I don't know.

Maybe Anti-Christ is already here, he is suppose to deceive the world, I don't know, just saying.  

It seems to me the world has been turned over to Anti-Christ, just look, what was sinful prior to Vatican II, is now the accepted way of life.  

It says in the book of 2John, whoever denies that Jesus Christ come in the flesh is anti-christ.  Not too many people believe that Jesus Christ is flesh and blood on the true altars throughout the world within the Blessed Sacrament.  

The Mass reduced to only a pale light, Sacraments are hidden.

The entire world is in darkness.  

I remember Fr. Denis would say,  "Do you really think that Anti-Christ will come with 666 imprinted on his forehead"

In otherwords we don't necessarily have to know who it is to recognize the effects.

We may be closer than anyone thinks, and then again maybe it will get much worse, maybe we will actually see this evil person.  Then the GM comes, but still in the end.

WE WIN!

Trinity in spite of all the words here, I can't imagine our Bishop not acknowledging a true pope.  

I just wish all reading would have a chance to meet and talk to His Excellency just once to know what we know.  

I do believe that God has a plan for CMRI in the future, which is why we are so blessed as a Catholic community.  Not that we don't have our own scandals; the devil having most of the  world right where the devil wants them, so who else to tempt but traditional Catholics, and we can see it everywhere, true priests and bishops being swayed by the evil one.  

We must pray for our religious, all religious SSPX, CMRI and all those trying so hard to keep the faith.

Maybe Anti-Christ is already here, he is suppose to deceive the world, I don't know, just saying.  

It seems to me the world has been turned over to Anti-Christ, just look, what was sinful prior to Vatican II, is now the accepted way of life.  

It says in the book of 2John, whoever denies that Jesus Christ come in the flesh is anti-christ.  Not too many people believe that Jesus Christ is flesh and blood on the true altars throughout the world within the Blessed Sacrament.  

The Mass reduced to only a pale light, Sacraments are hidden.

The entire world is in darkness.  

I remember Fr. Denis would say,  "Do you really think that Anti-Christ will come with 666 imprinted on his forehead"

In otherwords we don't necessarily have to know who it is to recognize the effects.

We may be closer than anyone thinks, and then again maybe it will get much worse, maybe we will actually see this evil person.  Then the GM comes, but still in the end.

WE WIN!

My main objection was to your earlier claim that Christ would come to earth again before a restoration.

Christ will not return until the end of the world . If you don't believe me, please ask your clergy.

It is not good to believe that Christ will return before the end, or to tell others that He will, because it  may lead to being fooled by Antichrist.

"...deceive even the elect...."