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Author Topic: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?  (Read 10387 times)

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Offline Miseremini

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  • That would make protestant baptism invalid yet the church accepts baptism from various sects.

    OK...so an infant with protestant parents, is Baptized immediately (within minutes) after being born by a Catholic nurse.  What does the church say as to where the child goes if it dies soon after?

    Also, if ANYONE can baptize in an emergency, which religion/sect do they belong to?  their parents? the baptizer? or are all baptized in Christ?
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]


    Offline Soubirous

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  • The infant baptized outside the Catholic Church is not a member of the Church. These children are members of the schismatic and heretical sects into which they have been initiated.

    Were they cleansed of original sin at baptism? Yes, provded that the form and matter of the baptism are correct.

    Were such an infant to die, would that child enter eternal beatitude? Whilst many Catholic churchmen in most recent times driven by sentiments of good intention and emotional hope have answered in the affirmative, the Church has definitively taught otherwise in its dogmatic starement on salvation from the Council of Florence. These children were they to die would be damned. They formally belong to a sect outside the Church.

    Therefore, I'm guessing that the canonical status of these children follows from how the Church treats natural law/affinities, insofar as they are considered to belong to and to be under the authority of their parents?
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus


    Online Pax Vobis

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  • Quote
    These children were they to die would be damned. They formally belong to a sect outside the Church.
    No way.  You can't be a formal heretic/schismatic until you have the use of reason.  Baptized children who die before the age of reason have no mortal sins on their soul and no Original Sin = salvation in heaven.


    No one is damned for material heresy/schism alone.

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    However, the child is not and never has been a member of the Catholic Church, membership in which is a necessary prerequisite for salvation.

    There's only 1 baptism.  If an Orthodox child is validly baptized, they are a member of the Catholic Church.  Baptism = membership.

    If a valid, Orthodox/protestant baptism didn't make one a member of the Church, then the Church wouldn't recognize such and would require ALL converts to be "re-baptized" for the "first" time.  But She does not, because the original, valid baptism is legit and makes one a child of God, heir to heaven and a Catholic member.

    This all changes once the age of reason is reached.


    Quote
    Should they die, they will be damned. The severity or mildness of their punishment is known to God alone until the General Judgment, but they would be eternally excluded from the Beatific Vision.
    No, they would only be damned if they accepted Orthodoxy/schism or protestant heresy.  Such "acceptance" would require the use of reason.





    Offline Miseremini

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  • Therefore, I'm guessing that the canonical status of these children follows from how the Church treats natural law/affinities, insofar as they are considered to belong to and to be under the authority of their parents?
    I don't believe parental authority extends/encompasses a mere declaration (welcome into their church/coven etc) that would result in their child being in any state of schism/heresy before the use of reason.  I don't believe any parent/guardian has the authority to impart a sin, venial or mortal, on their child anymore than anyone could transfer their schism/heresy to another without their co-operation.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Soubirous

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  • I don't believe parental authority extends/encompasses a mere declaration (welcome into their church/coven etc) that would result in their child being in any state of schism/heresy before the use of reason.  I don't believe any parent/guardian has the authority to impart a sin, venial or mortal, on their child anymore than anyone could transfer their schism/heresy to another without their co-operation.

    All granted. Yet I asked for clarification on that post since I'm trying to understand the canonical logic behind the explanation in question.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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  • Use of reason pertains to morality -- whether or not one is culpable for sin or meritorious for good action. It has no bearing on one's canonical or metaphysical state. A non-Catholuc child would have less-to-no cuplability for dying outside the Church. For this material sin they would experience little-to-no punishment. However, the child is not and never has been a member of the Catholic Church, membership in which is a necessary prerequisite for salvation. Should they die, they will be damned. The severity or mildness of their punishment is known to God alone until the General Judgment, but they would be eternally excluded from the Beatific Vision.
    However
    Quote
    Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 22), June 29, 1943.

    Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed.
    Considering that baptism is the sacrament of faith, and that the Catholic faith which is the supernatural faith is given in baptism, I don't see how they would be outside the Church, as they cannot be formal heretics/schismatics.

    Offline 2Vermont

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  • The infant baptized outside the Catholic Church is not a member of the Church. These children are members of the schismatic and heretical sects into which they have been initiated.

    Were they cleansed of original sin at baptism? Yes, provded that the form and matter of the baptism are correct.

    Were such an infant to die, would that child enter eternal beatitude? Whilst many Catholic churchmen in most recent times driven by sentiments of good intention and emotional hope have answered in the affirmative, the Church has definitively taught otherwise in its dogmatic starement on salvation from the Council of Florence. These children were they to die would be damned. They formally belong to a sect outside the Church.
    I'm still requesting support for these statements.  For some reason, you didn't respond to my earlier request.  Can/Will you provide support from Catholic teaching for them?


    Offline Stubborn

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  • I'm still requesting support for these statements.  For some reason, you didn't respond to my earlier request.  Can/Will you provide support from Catholic teaching for them?
    "The effect of this sacrament [of baptism] is the remission of all original and actual guilt, also of all penalty that is owed for that guilt. Hence no satisfaction for past sins is to be imposed on the baptized, but those who die before they incur any guilt go straight to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God." - Council of Florence

    I don't know what ER is talking about.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Soubirous

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  • "The effect of this sacrament [of baptism] is the remission of all original and actual guilt, also of all penalty that is owed for that guilt. Hence no satisfaction for past sins is to be imposed on the baptized, but those who die before they incur any guilt go straight to the kingdom of heaven and the vision of God." - Council of Florence

    I don't know what ER is talking about.

    Council of Florence of the mid 15th century dealt with papal supremacy and, by extension, which of the various groups in disagreement at that time (mainly re the EOs, since the Prots didn't get rolling till later) were or weren't in schism. Individual free will and children's capacity for reason (what folks here in this thread seem to be more interested in) were not on the table per se AFAIK.
    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline josefamenendez

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  • I thought all baptism done properly was Catholic, whether the sect acknowledges that or not.
    So the infant/ child under the age of reason is substantially Catholic and dies in a state of Grace. After that , if they are not brought up in the faith, they have no way to cleanse themselves of ( mortal ) sin and are material, and depending on understanding, formal heretics.

    This is why I have a problem with the Novus Ordo Church refusing infant baptism if there is no solid commitment by the parents to raise them Catholic. Wouldn't those children see Heaven if they died before the age of reason? What is the benefit of not baptizing them?  I thought we were in the business of saving souls- even ignorant children's souls.


    Offline Michelle

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  • If the baptism is valid the original sin is washed away and the Holy Spirit takes up His abode in that soul.  If the child dies in that state, he goes to heaven because God dwells in his soul.

    Online Pax Vobis

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  • Quote
    Individual free will and children's capacity for reason...were not on the table
    Doesn't matter.  These 2 topics are part of Catholic common sense and history.


    There were non-catholic sects in the first 3 centuries, who still had valid baptisms, and St Augustine fought tirelessly against the Pelagians to argue the necessity of infant baptism.  

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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  • If validly baptised infants with Protestant parents go to Hell, it would mean that they would not get to Heaven, even when they are in the state of grace. :confused:

    Otherwise, they somehow receive a valid Baptism but are not in the state of grace.:confused:


    Offline Stubborn

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  • This is why I have a problem with the Novus Ordo Church refusing infant baptism if there is no solid commitment by the parents to raise them Catholic. Wouldn't those children see Heaven if they died before the age of reason? What is the benefit of not baptizing them?  I thought we were in the business of saving souls- even ignorant children's souls.
    That is what the practice has always been, so it's not a NO thing. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse