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Author Topic: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?  (Read 10396 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
« on: July 25, 2024, 08:55:23 AM »
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    • Is a child that is baptised in a non-Catholic sect a counted as a Catholic? If the minister of this sect has the wrong intention then is the baptism invalid?

    Assuming the baptism is valid. Would the child would be a Catholic technically speaking until they reaches the age of reason?

    If so would they be heretics/schismatics immediately upon reaching the age of reason? Or would it take a bit 'more' so to speak? Like assenting to false doctrines/ considering themselves to be a protestants etc? And if their parents stopped practising the false religion before the child has reason, so that the child no longer thinks themselves as a protestant/orthodox etc, would they still be schismatics/heretics upon hitting the age of reason?
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #1 on: July 25, 2024, 10:35:19 AM »
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    • I think that if a child is baptized in the correct Catholic manner, no matter what the Christian sect is, that the child is covered by the sacrament until the age of reason and enters Heaven.
     After the age of reason the child is able to commit mortal sin and would be subject to hell without Confession in the Catholic church.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #2 on: July 25, 2024, 11:10:02 AM »
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    • After the age of reason, it would depend on when/what heresies the child is exposed to, what they understand, and (then) what they accept.  You could say, generally speaking, that all non-catholic, baptized persons become "material heretics" when the age of reason begins, but only God knows when they cross the line into formal heresy.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #3 on: July 25, 2024, 11:42:08 AM »
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    • Agreed. We cannot say exactly when they reach the age of reason or guilt, although the Church says generally it happens around 7 years old, all we really know for sure is that baptized children who die before reaching the age of reason  go straight to heaven.
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #4 on: July 25, 2024, 01:12:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on July 25, 2024, 08:55:23 AM

    Assuming the baptism is valid. Would the child would be a Catholic technically speaking until they reaches the age of reason?

    No, such are not Catholics and are not subject to the laws of the Catholic Church regarding marriage, abstinence, fasting, Easter duty, annual confession, etc.

    If so would they be heretics/schismatics immediately upon reaching the age of reason?

    They are formal schismatics and material heretics from infancy. Their material heresy can become formal at age of reason.
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    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #5 on: July 25, 2024, 01:53:52 PM »
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    • No, such are not Catholics and are not subject to the laws of the Catholic Church regarding marriage, abstinence, fasting, Easter duty, annual confession, etc.

    Neither are Catholic children before they reach the age of reason.

    They are formal schismatics and material heretics from infancy. Their material heresy can become formal at age of reason.

    First you say they are material heretics from infancy then you say they can become formal heretics at the age of reason.
    Which is it?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #6 on: July 25, 2024, 02:49:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miseremini on July 25, 2024, 01:53:52 PM
    No, such are not Catholics and are not subject to the laws of the Catholic Church regarding marriage, abstinence, fasting, Easter duty, annual confession, etc.

    Neither are Catholic children before they reach the age of reason.

    They are formal schismatics and material heretics from infancy. Their material heresy can become formal at age of reason.

    First you say they are material heretics from infancy then you say they can become formal heretics at the age of reason.
    Which is it?
    Elwin, can you please provide support for this?  I was always under the impression that they were Catholic until the age of reason.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #7 on: July 25, 2024, 03:38:26 PM »
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    • Quote
    First you say they are material heretics from infancy then you say they can become formal heretics at the age of reason.

    Which is it?
    What he said was correct.  There's a difference between material heresy and formal heresy.


    Material heresy is one who factually believes in heresy (but may not realize they are in error).  Formal heresy is one who knowingly believes in heresy.

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    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #8 on: July 25, 2024, 04:25:08 PM »
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    • If a baptized infant can't sin, how can they be any kind of a heretic?
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    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #9 on: July 25, 2024, 05:37:17 PM »
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    • In applied terms: 

    An example of material heresy is a small child who is taught by Protestant parents and thus repeats out loud that "Mary was just a nice lady," further, eagerly singing "Mary Did You Know?" :mad: in the under-7 children's yuletide chorus.

    It becomes formal heresy when this same child grows up, hears Catholics in early December speak of the Immaculate Conception (Ineffabilis Deus) or in mid-August of the Assumption (Munificentissimus Deus) and proceeds to mock what is Catholic dogma.

    PV & ER, accurate, at least on the surface?
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    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #10 on: July 25, 2024, 06:33:39 PM »
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    • Thanks Soubirous, I understood; my problem is with what elwin posted.

    ELWIN said

    They are formal schismatics and material heretics from infancy.

    How can an infant, hours, days or months old be either schismatic or heretical when the church teaches a validly baptized infant goes straight to heaven?
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #11 on: July 25, 2024, 07:20:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miseremini on July 25, 2024, 01:53:52 PM
    No, such are not Catholics and are not subject to the laws of the Catholic Church regarding marriage, abstinence, fasting, Easter duty, annual confession, etc.

    Neither are Catholic children before they reach the age of reason.

    They are formal schismatics and material heretics from infancy. Their material heresy can become formal at age of reason.

    First you say they are material heretics from infancy then you say they can become formal heretics at the age of reason.
    Which is it?
    Yes, children baptised in the Catholic Church are Catholics from the moment of their infant baptism.

    If you do not understand the distinctions amongst formal and matetial schism as well as formal and material heresy, and what these mean canonically as well as spiritually, I cannot help you.
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #12 on: July 25, 2024, 07:27:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miseremini on July 25, 2024, 06:33:39 PM
    Thanks Soubirous, I understood; my problem is with what elwin posted.

    ELWIN said

    They are formal schismatics and material heretics from infancy.

    How can an infant, hours, days or months old be either schismatic or heretical when the church teaches a validly baptized infant goes straight to heaven?
    The infant baptized outside the Catholic Church is not a member of the Church. These children are members of the schismatic and heretical sects into which they have been initiated.

    Were they cleansed of original sin at baptism? Yes, provded that the form and matter of the baptism are correct.

    Were such an infant to die, would that child enter eternal beatitude? Whilst many Catholic churchmen in most recent times driven by sentiments of good intention and emotional hope have answered in the affirmative, the Church has definitively taught otherwise in its dogmatic starement on salvation from the Council of Florence. These children were they to die would be damned. They formally belong to a sect outside the Church.
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #13 on: July 25, 2024, 07:32:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: ElwinRansom1970 on July 25, 2024, 07:27:14 PM
    The infant baptized outside the Catholic Church is not a member of the Church. These children are members of the schismatic and heretical sects into which they have been initiated.

    Were they cleansed of original sin at baptism? Yes, provded that the form and matter of the baptism are correct.

    Were such an infant to die, would that child enter eternal beatitude? Whilst many Catholic churchmen in most recent times driven by sentiments of good intention and emotional hope have answered in the affirmative, the Church has definitively taught otherwise in its dogmatic starement on salvation from the Council of Florence. These children were they to die would be damned. They formally belong to a sect outside the Church.
    How can they formally belong to a sect if they don't have the use of reason?
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    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #14 on: July 25, 2024, 07:47:06 PM »
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    • Use of reason pertains to morality -- whether or not one is culpable for sin or meritorious for good action. It has no bearing on one's canonical or metaphysical state. A non-Catholuc child would have less-to-no cuplability for dying outside the Church. For this material sin they would experience little-to-no punishment. However, the child is not and never has been a member of the Catholic Church, membership in which is a necessary prerequisite for salvation. Should they die, they will be damned. The severity or mildness of their punishment is known to God alone until the General Judgment, but they would be eternally excluded from the Beatific Vision.
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