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Author Topic: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?  (Read 10503 times)

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Offline josefamenendez

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Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
« Reply #45 on: July 28, 2024, 01:59:04 PM »
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    • Ok- so what is wrong with a pagan child , before the age of reason going to Heaven? Why don't we want all children before the age of reason to have Heaven available to them? Even an illicit Baptism is valid for the child. Is infant protestant baptism, ( which we mostly accept) that much different than an infant pagan baptism?

    Is there a penalty to a baptized person that rejects the Church/ Christ after the age of reason, more so than not being baptized at all?

     It seems , at least in the Novus Ordo, that they are willing to hand out "Sacraments" to anyone that wants them, willy-nilly, but apparently withholds baptism due to strict adherence to church regulations, which they usually care nothing about....Is it because without baptism, everything else is null and void anyway? Hmmm
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #46 on: July 28, 2024, 05:12:03 PM »
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    Is there a penalty to a baptized person that rejects the Church/ Christ after the age of reason, more so than not being baptized at all?
    Uhhh…yes.  A huge penalty.  Catholics in hell suffer WAY more than pagans.  Catholics had more grace so their rejection of Christ gives them WAY more guilt. 
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #47 on: July 28, 2024, 06:37:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 28, 2024, 05:12:03 PM
    Uhhh…yes.  A huge penalty.  Catholics in hell suffer WAY more than pagans.  Catholics had more grace so their rejection of Christ gives them WAY more guilt.
    I would like to read more about this. Can you suggest where I might find more information on it?
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    Online Michelle

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #48 on: July 28, 2024, 08:13:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 28, 2024, 05:12:03 PM
    Uhhh…yes.  A huge penalty.  Catholics in hell suffer WAY more than pagans.  Catholics had more grace so their rejection of Christ gives them WAY more guilt.
    Yes, this is what the Catechism teaches.  A baptized soul has a Mark on his soul as a child of God.  That soul suffers greater torments in hell because he was given the gift of faith and God once dwell in his soul, but by his own fault, rejected that great benefit.  
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #49 on: July 28, 2024, 09:15:43 PM »
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    Why don't we want all children before the age of reason to have Heaven available to them? 

    1.  You're assuming that children who die before the age of reason is a common event.  It's not.  It's very rare.
    2.  You're forgetting that nobody dies unless God says so.  So if an unbaptized child dies, it's because GOD DIRECTLY PLANNED it to happen, from all eternity.
    3.  You're forgetting that the Church makes such rules under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and thus, such a rule is God's rule.
    4.  You're trying to understand the mystery of salvation, which only God can understand, who sees all things - past, present and future - at the same time.
    5.  Nothing in life, no child who is conceived and born, happens unless God wills it to happen. 
    6.  Every soul, even those of pagan children, are dear to God and such are created in His image and likeness.  He has a plan for all souls to gain heaven.
    7.  Salvation is a spiritual mystery which none of us can understand.  Some of the Church's rules are also mysterious.


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    Even an illicit Baptism is valid for the child. Is infant protestant baptism, ( which we mostly accept) that much different than an infant pagan baptism?
    Protestantism has only been around for 500 years; in the course of history, that's not long.  The Church accepts Protestant baptisms as valid, but that doesn't mean She's happy about children being brought up schismatic and heretical.  At least Protestants teach children about God, and some of them are good about following the 10 commandments.  A pagan upbringing is MUCH worse than protestantism, because atheism is MUCH worse than protestantism.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #50 on: July 29, 2024, 05:02:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on July 28, 2024, 01:59:04 PM
    Ok- so what is wrong with a pagan child , before the age of reason going to Heaven? Why don't we want all children before the age of reason to have Heaven available to them? Even an illicit Baptism is valid for the child. Is infant protestant baptism, ( which we mostly accept) that much different than an infant pagan baptism?
    If the pagan/prot baby is in danger of death then they should be baptized without delay. If there is no danger of death, then the rule is, no baptism. It's not theirs, they have no right to it, they may not use it. God wants His adopted children to grow in the faith and love of Him - would you adopt and make one of your heirs, a pagan infant that you know for certain will only hate you more and more as he grows older?

    Under normal circuмstances, the parents or guardians are responsible for the child's upbringing, if they have no intention of raising the child Catholic then they will never make it heaven regardless. The sacraments are holy, they are the Church's and nobody else's to use however and whenever they feel like it.   

    I forget which pope forbade even the baptism of soldiers that were literally dying on the battle field - unless the minister first elicited a profession of faith from them.

    Yes, it is a scary thing, a terrifying thing - by design.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #51 on: July 29, 2024, 02:24:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 28, 2024, 09:15:43 PM
    1.  You're assuming that children who die before the age of reason is a common event.  It's not.  It's very rare.
    uhhhh, I kinda dropped in here randomly so I may well be missing something, but this is a product of the modern world.  Historically it was not uncommon at all
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #52 on: July 29, 2024, 03:04:28 PM »
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    uhhhh, I kinda dropped in here randomly so I may well be missing something, but this is a product of the modern world.  Historically it was not uncommon at all
    Ok, then this fact only serves to prove the point more.  For if the Church has a rule that you cannot baptize a child whose parents/guardians won't raise them as Catholic (and such a rule has been around for centuries), and if the child mortality rate is not low or rare, then it goes to show how seriously the Church takes this rule and prioritizes 1) a catholic education and 2) the consistent practice of the Faith.
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    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #53 on: July 29, 2024, 03:28:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 28, 2024, 09:15:43 PM
    1.  You're assuming that children who die before the age of reason is a common event.  It's not.  It's very rare.
    You said


    Quote from: ByzCat3000 on July 29, 2024, 02:24:50 PM
    uhhhh, I kinda dropped in here randomly so I may well be missing something, but this is a product of the modern world.  Historically it was not uncommon at all
    He Said

    Quote from: Pax Vobis on July 29, 2024, 03:04:28 PM
    Ok, then this fact only serves to prove the point more.  For if the Church has a rule that you cannot baptize a child whose parents/guardians won't raise them as Catholic (and such a rule has been around for centuries), and if the child mortality rate is not low or rare, then it goes to show how seriously the Church takes this rule and prioritizes 1) a catholic education and 2) the consistent practice of the Faith.
    I understood BYZ to mean that it was very common for children to die in the past and that them not dying now was a product of the modern world and perhaps medicine.
    Because prior to WWII and earlier it was very common for children to die.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #54 on: July 29, 2024, 04:44:44 PM »
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    • Yep.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #55 on: July 30, 2024, 09:47:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miseremini on July 29, 2024, 03:28:57 PM
    You said

    He Said
    I understood BYZ to mean that it was very common for children to die in the past and that them not dying now was a product of the modern world and perhaps medicine.
    Because prior to WWII and earlier it was very common for children to die.
    Right, I was just saying that child mortality wasn't always a rare event.  I agree that that makes Pax's argument stronger, not weaker
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #56 on: July 30, 2024, 11:09:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 29, 2024, 05:02:22 AM
    If the pagan/prot baby is in danger of death then they should be baptized without delay. If there is no danger of death, then the rule is, no baptism. It's not theirs, they have no right to it, they may not use it. God wants His adopted children to grow in the faith and love of Him - would you adopt and make one of your heirs, a pagan infant that you know for certain will only hate you more and more as he grows older?

    Under normal circuмstances, the parents or guardians are responsible for the child's upbringing, if they have no intention of raising the child Catholic then they will never make it heaven regardless. The sacraments are holy, they are the Church's and nobody else's to use however and whenever they feel like it.   

    I forget which pope forbade even the baptism of soldiers that were literally dying on the battle field - unless the minister first elicited a profession of faith from them.

    Yes, it is a scary thing, a terrifying thing - by design.
    What about the grace of the sacrament itself ? Certainly it has a benefit of heliotropism towards the faith?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #57 on: July 31, 2024, 05:39:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: josefamenendez on July 30, 2024, 11:09:22 PM
    What about the grace of the sacrament itself ? Certainly it has a benefit of heliotropism towards the faith?
    I would say that certainly it has a benefit of heliotropism towards the faith, yet we all come into this world bent on evil and as you know, even after baptism, that inclination toward evil remains with us and will dominate our whole life - even among the baptized - unless we overcome that inclination through consistently nourishing our faith through all the Church feeds us with. The Church requires this commitment of nourishing our faith in order to baptize everyone, even infants.

       


    Although I kinda figured what it meant, I had to look up heliotropism lol - good one!
     
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    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #58 on: July 31, 2024, 08:39:37 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on July 31, 2024, 05:39:08 AM
    I would say that certainly it has a benefit of heliotropism towards the faith, yet we all come into this world bent on evil and as you know, even after baptism, that inclination toward evil remains with us and will dominate our whole life - even among the baptized - unless we overcome that inclination through consistently nourishing our faith through all the Church feeds us with. The Church requires this commitment of nourishing our faith in order to baptize everyone, even infants.

       


    Although I kinda figured what it meant, I had to look up heliotropism lol - good one!
    Not trying to stump anyone - there was an old TAN book called heliotropism that I read 30 years ago and the word always stuck with me (  Now that I look the spelling is different)

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27837968-heliotropium
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: When exactly do baptised non-catholic children become heretics/schismatics?
    « Reply #59 on: July 31, 2024, 09:33:02 AM »
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    What about the grace of the sacrament itself ? Certainly it has a benefit of heliotropism towards the faith?
    Right after one goes to confession, one usually has a lot of "spiritual momentum" as well.  But we all know (from experience) that if you don't pray well, or too little, and don't ACTIVELY live your religion...you'll be right back in the confession a few weeks later.


    So what chances does a child have, who grows up in a non-catholic environment, with little (or no prayer), no religious discussion (or maybe even anti-religious ideas), going to public schools, and following the example of non-religious parents, relatives, friends, etc.  They have NO SHOT.

    The graces of the sacrament (especially baptism alone) are like a seed planted.  If you don't water it, and take care of it, it'll die quickly.
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