I can't find much information on this.Don’t blame the holy week rites on Pius XII. He only had direct correlation to the changing of the dates of certain Holy Week masses, you have to remember he was bedridden for the last years of his life.
I know that the Eucharist fast started at midnight and that mass couldn't start after 1 PM. But what about the earliest time a mass could be said?
What year did this change occur?
I know that Pope Pius XII made quite a few changes with the half modernist 1955 Holy Week, but I think I read somewhere that the mass times were changed before 1955.
But what about the earliest time a mass could be said?
Off topic, but...If the Offertory has to be after midnight for the mass to be a Christmas mass, then this is another proof that the consecration is not the ONLY factor to consider, when determining the completeness/legality/morality of a mass.
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Not necessarily responding to you, Ladislaus, just a general comment related to last weeks’ thread.
I can't find much information on this.I have been under the impression for a long time, and still am, that the earliest time Holy Mass can begin corresponds with the break of dawn or close to that moment of the rising of the sun. And, because the birth of Christ as well as His Holy Resurrection happened at midnight, Holy Mass is allowed at that time, too, (maybe almost required?) for liturgy and creation to blend beautifully. The priest facing east while offering the Holy Sacrifice is another example of the Church's blending liturgy with the life of Christ.
I know that the Eucharist fast started at midnight and that mass couldn't start after 1 PM. But what about the earliest time a mass could be said?
What year did this change occur?
I know that Pope Pius XII made quite a few changes with the half modernist 1955 Holy Week, but I think I read somewhere that the mass times were changed before 1955.
The novus ordo switched it to the Gospel because they so gutted the Offertory that it's only 5 minutes long. :laugh2: Blink and you'll miss it.
I have been under the impression for a long time, and still am, that the earliest time Holy Mass can begin corresponds with the break of dawn or close to that moment of the rising of the sun. And, because the birth of Christ as well as His Holy Resurrection happened at midnight, Holy Mass is allowed at that time, too, (maybe almost required?) for liturgy and creation to blend beautifully. The priest facing east while offering the Holy Sacrifice is another example of the Church's blending liturgy with the life of Christ.
The novus ordo switched it to the Gospel because they so gutted the Offertory that it's only 5 minutes long. :laugh2: Blink and you'll miss it.You have to distinguish between a couple different things here:
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The point is that if a Traditional Catholic misses the Offertory, they miss mass; they do not fulfill their sunday obligation. Ergo, mass is much more than just the consecration. Mass does not exist, or is incomplete, or is invalid, if the Offertory is deficient, even if the consecration is valid.
I can't find much information on this.From MATTERS LITURGICAL (The Collectio Rerum Liturgicarum) by Rev. Joseph Wuest, C.SS.R. Page 315 #180. "The Time of Mass. b) According to the general law Mass may not be begun sooner than one hour before dawn or later than 1 o'clock in the afternoon....c) Dawn begins with the first appearance of daylight and ends with the first appearance of the sun over the horizon. It is however licit to begin Mass as much as one hour and twenty minutes before the beginning of dawn as astronomically determined, since only a moral computation of dawn is required." Then come a series of exceptions and comments about such feasts as Christmas and Easter and about those who have no dawn for a certain period of the year,etc. There is nothing given about being able to start Mass anytime after midnight. This is interesting, too, because every New Year's Eve Fr. Joseph Pfieffer has a midnight Mass. He always had his reasons for this but they didn't seems solid to me.
I know that the Eucharist fast started at midnight and that mass couldn't start after 1 PM. But what about the earliest time a mass could be said?
What year did this change occur?
I know that Pope Pius XII made quite a few changes with the half modernist 1955 Holy Week, but I think I read somewhere that the mass times were changed before 1955.
From MATTERS LITURGICAL (The Collectio Rerum Liturgicarum) by Rev. Joseph Wuest, C.SS.R. Page 315 #180. "The Time of Mass. b) According to the general law Mass may not be begun sooner than one hour before dawn or later than 1 o'clock in the afternoon....c) Dawn begins with the first appearance of daylight and ends with the first appearance of the sun over the horizon. It is however licit to begin Mass as much as one hour and twenty minutes before the beginning of dawn as astronomically determined, since only a moral computation of dawn is required." Then come a series of exceptions and comments about such feasts as Christmas and Easter and about those who have no dawn for a certain period of the year,etc. There is nothing given about being able to start Mass anytime after midnight. This is interesting, too, because every New Year's Eve Fr. Joseph Pfieffer has a midnight Mass. He always had his reasons for this but they didn't seems solid to me.
Yes, but Pius XII dumped these restrictions entirely, and bishops regularly made exceptions for pastoral needs (e.g. to accommodate faithful who required an earlier Mass time). This was more of a guideline than a hard-fast rule, as evidence by all the "exceptions". I think that a midnight Mass on New Year's Eve is a great idea. While the world welcomes the New Year with debauchery, Catholics sanctify it with the Mass. I love it.So PPXII "dumped these restrictions entirely" and now the liturgy rules are based on personal preference of bishops and priests? And where there are no bishops (as with us trads) the priests can act ad libitum w/ regards to such things as Mass times? Sounds as though that is your conclusion. If so, I don't want to live in that kind of world so I prefer a priest that tries to stick as closely as he can to rules that once governed the Roman liturgy. I understand that it is the "wild,wild,west" out there and things can't be as they were but rules were made for a reason. When I find a priest that tries to stay true to the rules, then, if he thinks he needs to adjust something for pastoral needs, I am more at peace with his decision because I know that it is for real pastoral reasons and not for personal reasons or whim.
1917 Code of Canon Law (https://ia800900.us.archive.org/12/items/newcanonlaw00woywuoft/newcanonlaw00woywuoft.pdf)
Article III. Time and Place of Holy Mass.
663. Holy Mass may be said on all days except those which are excluded by the priest's own Rite. (Canon 820.)
664. Holy Mass should not be commenced earlier than one hour before the aurora, nor later than one hour after mid-day. On Christmas day only the conventual or parochial Mass can be begun at midnight, but no other Mass without an Apostolic indult.
From MATTERS LITURGICAL (The Collectio Rerum Liturgicarum) by Rev. Joseph Wuest, C.SS.R. Page 315 #180. "The Time of Mass. b) According to the general law Mass may not be begun sooner than one hour before dawn or later than 1 o'clock in the afternoon....c) Dawn begins with the first appearance of daylight and ends with the first appearance of the sun over the horizon. It is however licit to begin Mass as much as one hour and twenty minutes before the beginning of dawn as astronomically determined, since only a moral computation of dawn is required." Then come a series of exceptions and comments about such feasts as Christmas and Easter and about those who have no dawn for a certain period of the year,etc. There is nothing given about being able to start Mass anytime after midnight. This is interesting, too, because every New Year's Eve Fr. Joseph Pfieffer has a midnight Mass. He always had his reasons for this but they didn't seems solid to me.Thank you. That is what I was looking for.
So PPXII "dumped these restrictions entirely" and now the liturgy rules are based on personal preference of bishops and priests?
Thank you. That is what I was looking for.
Even though we live in difficult times and I can see that there are very good reasons for celebrating mass in the afternoon, it feels rather strange to hear mass at 6 PM. As I someone once said, the most important things should come first.
I don't know what the rules were apart from midnigt fast but in our parish in St Dublin, Ireland, in the 1940s and 1950s there was 7,8,9,10,11 and 12 Mass. Most inrteresting was that Holy Communion was not served at 11 or 12 Mass. I recall my dad liked a pint on Saturday night and nearly always went to 12 Mass. Indeed a lot of Irishmen liked a pint or two on Saturday night so that could explain why no Communion was given on those late Masses. The most popular Mass was the 8-o-clock one. In those days I served as an altarboy so got to know these things.A revised translation in English would not effect the Latin.
During the 1950s, Pope Pius XII requested that Fr Bea, a Jesuit of course, revise the translation of the Psalter, the words of Psalm 26 that contained “I will wash my hands among the innocent” the one used for centuries in the part of the Offertory Rite of the Mass where the priest washes his hands. The last translation of this Psalm was done at the Council of Trent, yet Pope Pius XII wanted an updated translation. Fr Bea, made a cardinal by Pope John XXIII in 1959, was a liberal who also championed the modernist religious liberty at Vatican II against the religious tolerance of the traditionalist Cardinal Ottaviani causing division and rupture at the Council.
https://www.jstor.org/stable/43719062?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents (https://www.jstor.org/stable/43719062?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents)
Presumably anytime after midnight. So, for Christmas Mass, +Williamson once told me that as long as the Offertory began after Midnight, it counted as a Mass on Christmas Day.The celebration of vespers on Saturday evening was counted as celebrated on Sunday.
I have been under the impression for a long time, and still am, that the earliest time Holy Mass can begin corresponds with the break of dawn or close to that moment of the rising of the sun. And, because the birth of Christ as well as His Holy Resurrection happened at midnight, Holy Mass is allowed at that time, too, (maybe almost required?) for liturgy and creation to blend beautifully. The priest facing east while offering the Holy Sacrifice is another example of the Church's blending liturgy with the life of Christ.During the American cινιℓ ωαr there was mass celebrated at 4:30AM.
A revised translation in English would not effect the Latin.
During the American cινιℓ ωαr there was mass celebrated at 4:30AM.
The celebration of vespers on Saturday evening was counted as celebrated on Sunday.
A revised translation in English would not"...would not affect the Latin."effectthe Latin.
If people really believed that, then they also shouldn't do any servile work after sundown on Saturday, go shopping on Saturday night, certainly not "hit the bars or casinos" on Saturday night, and should start abstaining from meat on Thursday evenings, since according to that reasoning it's really Friday by then.
Fulfilling one's Sunday obligation on a Saturday night because it's "Sunday" is ridiculous. If people really believed that, then they also shouldn't do any servile work after sundown on Saturday, go shopping on Saturday night, certainly not "hit the bars or casinos" on Saturday night, and should start abstaining from meat on Thursday evenings, since according to that reasoning it's really Friday by then.
Fulfilling one's Sunday obligation on a Saturday night because it's "Sunday" is ridiculous. If people really believed that, then they also shouldn't do any servile work after sundown on Saturday, go shopping on Saturday night, certainly not "hit the bars or casinos" on Saturday night, and should start abstaining from meat on Thursday evenings, since according to that reasoning it's really Friday by then.There is a story about this very thinking from the life of St Notburga;