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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Matthew on October 05, 2010, 09:58:23 AM

Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Matthew on October 05, 2010, 09:58:23 AM
An old friend of mine -- a traditional Catholic, mind you -- got married exactly 2 years ago. I am morally certain that his wife is/was Novus Ordo. He now has a 22 month old son and a 6 month old daughter. Both children were baptized at least 3 months after their births.

Prayers requested for him and his family, and for myself that I don't look down on my old buddy too much, who seems to be totally infected with Novus Ordo influence. It is sad, and highlights just how dangerous the  touchy-feely, sentimental Novus Ordo religion can be.

What is interesting is that this friend of mine was practically *notorious* for his piety! He was the most pious man I knew. How sad.

As Bishop Williamson would say, "Kyrie Eleison!"

Matthew
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Matthew on October 05, 2010, 10:03:24 AM
I had to use the word "interesting" in the context of this sad situation, but what is "interesting" here is that you have a man who is inclined to piety -- and normally I'd say that as long as you have enough personal piety, you can survive in the Novus Ordo.

But apparently solid Catholic doctrine and liturgy is more important than even I thought possible.

In my previous experience, I knew a lady who was very pious and seemed to be surviving in the Novus Ordo quite well -- morally and otherwise. She was very traditional, and prayed a lot. I don't know how she turned out though; we've been out of touch for at least 6 years.

Emotions can help you pray; but they can also turn on you later. Emotions are best kept within the bounds of reason and doctrine.

Matthew
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: MyrnaM on October 05, 2010, 10:45:26 AM


My belief is as the Church teaches, if you die in Sanctifying grace you will be saved.  Novus/O or  Protestant, which the two have currently merged.  

Simple and straight forward!  

Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Alexandria on October 05, 2010, 11:38:14 AM
What the novus ordo does for you?

Easy answer.  Walk into any novus church and look at everyone.  Especially the over 55 crowd.

That is what the novus church does to you.

Quote
In my previous experience, I knew a lady who was very pious and seemed to be surviving in the Novus Ordo quite well -- morally and otherwise. She was very traditional, and prayed a lot. I don't know how she turned out though; we've been out of touch for at least 6 years.


I bet if you had a conversation with her you would find out that she is not any longer Catholic despite her appearances.  Week after week, year after year, of the novus ordo mess erodes your faith imperceptibly.  They do not even know that they no longer think Catholic; rather, they think Vatican II.  I know many elderly women who will swear to me that they still have the same faith they were taught as a child.  They don't, and they don't even realize it.
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Belloc on October 05, 2010, 11:48:42 AM
Breeds indifferentism, syncretism and universal salvation....
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Roman Catholic on October 05, 2010, 11:54:00 AM
Quote from: Alexandria


I bet if you had a conversation with her you would find out that she is not any longer Catholic despite her appearances.  Week after week, year after year, of the novus ordo mess erodes your faith imperceptibly.  They do not even know that they no longer think Catholic; rather, they think Vatican II.  I know many elderly women who will swear to me that they still have the same faith they were taught as a child.  They don't, and they don't even realize it.



Yes, just asking a few questions usually reveals that Novus Ordites are CINO.
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: OHCA on October 05, 2010, 02:16:43 PM
Quote from: Roman Catholic


Yes, just asking a few questions usually reveals that Novus Ordites are CINO.


Be careful with your use of "CINO"--Classiccom may have it copyrighted! :smoke-pot:

Sorry--I couldn't resist :cheers:

In all seriousness, I can give a rough idea of what the N.O. does to a person.  I mainly attend Motu now, but an N.O. parish is my only practical option for Catholicism.  That being said, I am VERY harsh on the N.O. and clearly see many of its ills (though I have learned even more here).

The N.O. relaxes away from the discipline necessary to live in the dignity properly becoming of a CATHOLIC (i.e., making a complete JOKE of fasting and abstinence laws); leads to neglect of prayer and devotion (First Friday, Stations of the Cross, Rosary, grace for meals, good strong traditional prayers all but forgotten and not learned by those born post-Conciliar--I am just now learning many of these myself, including Hail Holy Queen, St. Michael, etc.)

Now that I am more fully embracing tradition and imposing traditional practices and observances upon myself, I can truly see a personal impact in my life.  Living as a full CATHOLIC amid the N.O. is my cross to bear, and the burden has been undeservedly  lessened somewhat by my now being in a conservative N.O. with the TLM and where tradition is observed and encouraged to a great extent. I say undeserved because I previously cussed, cursed, blasphemed, and fell from grace over the N.O. and the void of tradition, and because it was "too hard" for me to live as the CATHOLIC I desired to be with the lack of support (no others doing so, no authority saying I had to, etc).

It has indeed been my experience that, as stated, the N.O. breeds indifferentism.  I have otherwise found what has been said thus far to be true.  In myself, there was a craving for this greater fullness.  I had an opportunity to learn some tradition and know that's where the Church had been (and I believe will return).  I can only suspect that the young folks (40 and all the way down) who have left and are leaving for protestantism have a similar craving without the grounding in the fullness of the Church that I had.  Thus, the N.O. is failing many souls.  But I have not seen any logical explanation, nor any miraulous revelation, that the Apostolic chain is anywhere but there.

Flood back into the N.O., raise hell, make mammoth waves, and DEMAND the fullness of what you bought into as converts to Catholicism and your birthright as cradle Catholics!  If doctrine is wrong, make them squirm like a worm until they are squished or have wiggled back into place!  Yes, God COULD give us a Pope from elsewhere, but that's not what He has promised in Scripture and Tradition!
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Alexandria on October 05, 2010, 02:27:09 PM
Quote
Flood back into the N.O., raise hell, make mammoth waves, and DEMAND the fullness of what you bought into as converts to Catholicism and your birthright as cradle Catholics!  If doctrine is wrong, make them squirm like a worm until they are squished or have wiggled back into place!  Yes, God COULD give us a Pope from elsewhere, but that's not what He has promised in Scripture and Tradition!



Are you saying that we didn't fight?  That we all just laid down and played dead as they rammed the changes down our throats?
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Matthew on October 05, 2010, 03:04:22 PM
To return to the original post, though, we're talking about someone who had the complete traditional Catholic Faith and LATER starting being more lax toward the N.O. for various reasons, including marriage (some guys can't stay single forever; it's too hard for them)

Matthew
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: AlbinoLuciani on October 05, 2010, 04:00:55 PM
Quote
Especially the over 55 crowd.


Jeans, white tennis shoes, and pastel windbreakers.
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: stevusmagnus on October 05, 2010, 04:43:07 PM
Matthew,

What specific effects have you noticed so far?
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Roman Catholic on October 05, 2010, 09:49:21 PM
Quote from: Matthew
...talking about someone who had the complete traditional Catholic Faith and LATER starting being more lax toward the N.O. for various ....



The Trans Alpine Redemptorists have been saying on their website that the ecuмenical event in Westminster Abbey was fine.
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Matthew on October 05, 2010, 09:52:15 PM
Quote from: stevusmagnus
Matthew,

What specific effects have you noticed so far?


Re-read the OP (original post) and you'll find 2 things "wrong with this picture".

It's not that I don't see moral and other problems in people all around me, it just shocks me when it happens to a solid Traditional Catholic. But this particular Trad. Catholic cozied up a bit too close to the Novus Ordo, which I believe is part of the problem.

Matthew
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Roman Catholic on October 05, 2010, 09:56:53 PM
Quote from: OHCA


Flood back into the N.O., raise hell, make mammoth waves, and DEMAND the fullness of what you bought into as converts to Catholicism and your birthright as cradle Catholics!  If doctrine is wrong, make them squirm like a worm until they are squished or have wiggled back into place!  Yes, God COULD give us a Pope from elsewhere, but that's not what He has promised in Scripture and Tradition!



Flood back to the vomit?

If Doctrine is wrong - they are not Catholic.

Return to invalid rites that are not salvivic?

Perhaps there is food for thought here:

And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words: going forth out of that house or city shake off the dust from your feet. Amen I say to you, it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

Matthew 10:14
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Roman Catholic on October 05, 2010, 10:09:23 PM
Quote from: OHCA


The N.O. relaxes away from the discipline necessary to live in the dignity properly becoming of a CATHOLIC (i.e., making a complete JOKE of fasting and abstinence laws); leads to neglect of prayer and devotion (First Friday, Stations of the Cross, Rosary, grace for meals, good strong traditional prayers all but forgotten and not learned by those born post-Conciliar--I am just now learning many of these myself, including Hail Holy Queen, St. Michael, etc.)

It has indeed been my experience that, as stated, the N.O. breeds indifferentism.  I have otherwise found what has been said thus far to be true.



Yes, but as well as the lack of fundamental Catholic practices which are helps to salvation; the beliefs of most Novus Ordites are not Catholic.

If you were to sit down with a basic catechism and ask most Novus Ordites the questions, how many of them would have the basics wrong, and vehemently disagree with doctrines?

Try raising Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, or communicatio in sacris with Novus Ordites. Many don't believe in transubstantiation either.
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Cheryl on October 06, 2010, 07:38:22 AM
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: Matthew
...talking about someone who had the complete traditional Catholic Faith and LATER starting being more lax toward the N.O. for various ....



The Trans Alpine Redemptorists have been saying on their website that the ecuмenical event in Westminster Abbey was fine.


RC, don't know if you read Traditio or not, but there have been a few items about the TAR's going N.O.  Many of the SSPX benefactors of the group are asking for their donations back, only to be told that the donations are non-refundable because they were gifts to God.  The SSPX benefactors are upset because they say that the Redemptorists defrauded them by not telling them that the monks were going N.O.  I don't blame the generous benefactors for being upset.
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Belloc on October 06, 2010, 07:59:06 AM
Traditio-same as the odious Tradition in Action group??
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Cheryl on October 06, 2010, 08:37:47 AM
Quote from: Belloc
Traditio-same as the odious Tradition in Action group??


Oh goodness no!  http://www.traditio.com/

If you decide to go there, you click on commentary of the fathers, then the month of October.  The items I referred to are listed within the past week.  I'm hesitant to mention them here, as I know that Matthew doesn't like them because they don't always treat the SSPX fairly or with respect.  What I do like about the commentaries when they are news items, they quote their source.
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: CathMomof7 on October 06, 2010, 08:54:33 AM
Quote from: Matthew
An old friend of mine -- a traditional Catholic, mind you -- got married exactly 2 years ago. I am morally certain that his wife is/was Novus Ordo. He now has a 22 month old son and a 6 month old daughter. Both children were baptized at least 3 months after their births.

Prayers requested for him and his family, and for myself that I don't look down on my old buddy too much, who seems to be totally infected with Novus Ordo influence. It is sad, and highlights just how dangerous the  touchy-feely, sentimental Novus Ordo religion can be.

What is interesting is that this friend of mine was practically *notorious* for his piety! He was the most pious man I knew. How sad.

As Bishop Williamson would say, "Kyrie Eleison!"

Matthew


Matthew,

I will keep your friend in my prayers.  We are new to tradition, as you know, and I worry some about the future of our children and their marriages, should they be so called to this vocation, particularly our oldest.  

Traditional Catholics are a small minority and, from my experience, many traditional catholics that are "approved" by the Church are missing many Truths, including fortitude.  (I do not mean to be critical)  Therefore, it can be quite hard for a young person to find a suitable spouse.  What then is one to do?

I suspect my son will eventually find a young girl (as he feels strongly at this point about marrying) who is non-Catholic but very conservative.  He will then persuade her to convert to traditional Catholicism.  In many ways, this may be preferable to NO Catholics.  Unless one has a really strong desire for Truth, he/she will develop a very insufficient knowledge of the faith.  I've also found that many conservative and traditional minded NO Catholics are very strongly against "abandoning" the NO church.  They see it as disobedience to their priests, bishops, and the Pope.  

IMO, it takes a Catholic with a tiny bit of a rebel attitude to muster up the courage to face their NO friends and leave.  

Just my thoughts.
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Roman Catholic on October 06, 2010, 09:03:30 AM
Quote from: Cheryl
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: Matthew
...talking about someone who had the complete traditional Catholic Faith and LATER starting being more lax toward the N.O. for various ....



The Trans Alpine Redemptorists have been saying on their website that the ecuмenical event in Westminster Abbey was fine.


RC, don't know if you read Traditio or not, but there have been a few items about the TAR's going N.O.  Many of the SSPX benefactors of the group are asking for their donations back, only to be told that the donations are non-refundable because they were gifts to God.  The SSPX benefactors are upset because they say that the Redemptorists defrauded them by not telling them that the monks were going N.O.  I don't blame the generous benefactors for being upset.


Thanks Cheryl, that is interesting. I very rarely go to the Traditio site. I think it is problematic, although it has some value for those who are discerning.

Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Belloc on October 06, 2010, 09:05:52 AM
I find more "conservative" Prots are often on more same page with us then NO Catholics in many ways.....NO, in my area, gets a bad reputation, often times well earned, of being biblicly illiterate, liberal and not too firm in faith.....A Baptist minister friend often looks at me when I say something and notes "you're, well, not like most Catholics around here I have met".same fellow has noted "V2 was not too good for your Church at all".

No kidding
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Roman Catholic on October 06, 2010, 09:34:10 AM
Quote from: OHCA


Be careful with your use of "CINO"--Classiccom may have it copyrighted! :smoke-pot:

Sorry--I couldn't resist :cheers:



 :smile:

But shhh or he might hear us and reappear.

Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Cheryl on October 06, 2010, 09:48:50 AM
Quote from: Roman Catholic

I think it is problematic, although it has some value for those who are discerning.


Quite so RC. When reading at the site, I first try to think of the motivation for writing the commentary and second, I research the listed info source for more sources.  Hope what I wrote makes sense. When on the net I operate on premise, every thing I read is false until I can prove to myself that the information is true. :smile:  
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Roman Catholic on October 06, 2010, 09:56:18 AM
Quote from: Cheryl


 When on the net I operate on premise, every thing I read is false until I can prove to myself that the information is true. :smile:  


  :applause:Too bad everyone is not so cautious!
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: MyrnaM on October 06, 2010, 10:27:33 AM
Quote from: Roman Catholic
Quote from: Cheryl


 When on the net I operate on premise, every thing I read is false until I can prove to myself that the information is true. :smile:  


  :applause:Too bad everyone is not so cautious!


This is especially important and good advice when reading anything about Traditional Catholic parishes or Catholic doctrine of past Popes, statements taken out of context, and what they might have said to "who" at the time it was said, this makes a big difference in why they said what they said.  

 :detective:
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: Cheryl on October 06, 2010, 10:54:25 AM


 I first try to think of the motivation for writing the information  

This as well as truth are important factors for discerning net info.

Why was something written?  To inform, to amend a previous statement.  Maybe to get the truth out to a larger audience after all other avenues have been explored.  Maybe to discredit an individual or group on false pretenses.

Every time I would ask my children, when they were just wee ones, why did you do that?  They'd always stand on one foot, then the other and give me some lame excuse.  My stock answer was, what you just said was an excuse, I asked for a reason.   So when I'm on the net, I also look for the reason the material has been put out there for others to read.  
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: anonymouse on October 10, 2010, 03:46:53 PM
Matthew,

This is very sad that your friend has chosen to delay the baptism of his infant. Of course that's not the right thing to do.

Some of us, though, because of distance and/or other circuмstances, cannot get to a Latin Mass every week, but we go as often as we can. Otherwise, the choices remaining are staying home and attending the Novus Ordo, and we are choosing to go to Mass. I realize most of the people on this forum will not agree or support our decision, but this is our decision. In the last five or so years I've seen a lot of stuff in traddie land, and in the Novus Ordo too.
Title: What the Novus Ordo does to you
Post by: ServusSpiritusSancti on October 10, 2010, 08:14:23 PM
Quote from: Belloc
I find more "conservative" Prots are often on more same page with us then NO Catholics in many ways.....NO, in my area, gets a bad reputation, often times well earned, of being biblicly illiterate, liberal and not too firm in faith.....A Baptist minister friend often looks at me when I say something and notes "you're, well, not like most Catholics around here I have met".same fellow has noted "V2 was not too good for your Church at all".

No kidding


I do agree that good Christian Protestants atleast strive to do God's will (although they can't fully do that until they convert to Traditional Catholicism). Protestants can easily relate to NO Catholics considering the NO is basically Protestant. Then again, there are those who atleast respect Traditional Catholics. Regardless though, we should strive to convert Protestants as much as possible.