Quote from: BTNYC

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: OHCA

Quote from: Matto

...(except for Marionite).

I'm not familiar with Marionite, other than it's my understanding that they're in the Middle East.  What's the problem with them?

I never went to one of their Masses so I cannot speak from personal experience, but I was told by other traditional Catholics that they were influenced the most by Vatican II and their Divine Liturgy was modernized a lot to bring it closer to the Novus Ordo, more than the other Eastern Rites.

I've been to Maronite Masses and I can confirm this. Versus Populum, Altar Girls, and Lectresses have been adopted by the Maronites.

I second BTNYC. We were at a Maronite Mass not long ago while traveling- it was the only option we could find outside the NO, and we'd never been. We will never go gain. There was everything BTNYC said, plus the sign of peace and protestant music. It was pretty much like the NO Mass. They also didn't kneel- they said according to their custom it was more fitting to stand before God. I thought that was.... strange.

Quote from: Gregory I

Find an indult mass for two reasons:

1. The Church cannot legislate evil laws, therefore the Mass of Paul VI cannot be wicked. The Church of Christ condemns as erroneous the Notion that the Church, being guided by the Holy SPirit, can legislate that which is harmful or dangerous.

 HOWEVER, the way most priests and bishops IMPLEMENT this change CAN be harmful or dangerous. To say nothing of numerous abuses and liberal sermons and teaching, and the wholesale drugging of the sheep into a stupor. SO you need discernment. Therefore, a Latin Mass said by a traditionally minded priest is the way to go.

2. It is very easy to identify schismatics: They are the reactionaries. Without a single exception. Here is how the story goes (Trust me, I abandoned the faith for Orthodoxy for three years before returning to the Church, battered as she is):

1. Some members of the Church do something distasteful or wrong.
2. The other members are scandalized and react to this by saying, "They have abandoned us in spirit!"
3. They then claim to be the remnant of the Church since they "have not changed."
4. They are the ones who PHYSICALLY get up and actually sever communion with the first group on account of the perceived laxity, sinfulness, indifference or heresy of the first group.

The funny thing about these people is they claim the Mainstream has "Abandoned them" and they yet refuse to accept the Mainstreams conditions for reconciliation or attempts at dialog. They are usually animated by a zeal for truth, but it is excessive because it has become radicalized by two delusions:

1. We are the faithful remnant because we are being persecuted.
2. We are the faithful remnant because we hold to the "Hard truths" nobody wants to admit.

Both of these are ultimately egoisms and delusions.

Now, plug n play: Let's look at history and see who fell into this pattern of thinking:

1. The Donatists. They abandoned the Church in Africa because they allowed Apostate Bishops to Consecrate other bishops. They wrongly saw this as a violation of the Church's purity.

2. The adherents of Paulinus in the Antiochian "Meletian Schism." Paulinus was appointed Patriarch of Antioch over and Against St. Meletius of Antioch, and he regularly called St Meletius unbaptized, without grace, uncanonical, etc. Yet It was Meletius who was canonized as a saint, and who headed the second ecuмenical council in 381! Again, reactionary accusations of the "impurity" of St. Meletius Episcopal origins (He was ordained by Arians).

3. The Monophysites and their fanatical adherence to St. Cyril in an unacceptably fundamentalist fashion,a s if no other fathers existed and they did not clarify and enrich one another. Again, they accused ROme and the Majority of the East of impurity and ACTUALLY AND PHYSICALLY left.

4. The Eastern Orthodox who claim that Rome had abandoned the faith by proclaiming Filioque in the creed (Notwithstanding it is taught by the eastern fathers in detail, especially by St. Gregory of Nyssa and Epiphanius of Salamis and St. Basil) and sinned by baptism by pouring, using unleavened bread, and that Papal Supremacy was vain Pretension and not the lived Experience of the Church as a whole. Again: THEY are the ones who ACTUALLY broke communion and physically left, to say nothing of constantly repudiating their temporary reunions.

5. The hyper-traditionalists of today who say, contrary to the Magisterium of the Church, (Auctorem Fidei) that the Church has erred in promulgating councils and disciplines for us to follow, and not only that, but that, in themselves they are spiritually harmful, and even evil. They claim, as the other schismatics do, that "They abandoned US, we never changed!" And yet all the disobedience and ACTUAL PHYSICAL LEAVING happens from only one side.


SO, for these reasons: Find an indult.

I myself am a traditionalist, prefer the Latin Mass because of its clearer theology, tradition, and the inability to take it and twist it into something it is not meant to be. IN this sense, it is preferable to, safer than, and superior to the current form of the Novus Ordo in America (Although the Norbertines in California offer it Ad Orientim, in latin, with Incense, amidst Gregorian Chant using the The Roman Canon. I can't find it in my heart to fault that! :)

Thanks. I think I will attend an indult traditional mass, once I get my own car and am able to drive myself places. But for now I'll attend a Novus Ordo Mass with my mother. I just give up on this whole sede vs sspx vs V2 crap. I'm just so tired of reading countless threads watching countless YouTube vids, and visiting COUNTLESS websites trying to find answer. I'll go to Mass, receive Communion, go to confession, hoping that they are all valid, and begging God not to count these acts as mortal sins incase they are invalid, since I genuinely, completely, absolutely do not know. I sometimes wish I was born extremely poor. Then I wouldn't have access to the internet, and then I wouldn't be practically despairing, and even doubting God and His Church. Besides what good is knowledge if I don't have humility and real love for God? St. Bernadette, I heard, didn't even know what "Trinity" meant and was illiterate, yet the Mother of God appeared to her.... as Ecclesiastes 1:18 says "...and he that addeth knowledge, addeth also labor." I'll just do what Padre Pio said, "pray, hope, and don't worry."  I'll still view the words and actions of post v2 popes with contempt and suspicion, and I'll continue to refuse to accept the v2 council, but that is as far as I'll go. As for evangelization, if someone becomes curious about the Catholic faith, I won't utter a single peep about sedevacantism or sspx. I'll convince them try and go to Tridentine Mass,  but that's it. God have mercy....