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Author Topic: What Papal Docuмents Support the Ordination or the Consecration etc..  (Read 6389 times)

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Offline SPelli

Re: What Papal Docuмents Support the Ordination or the Consecration etc..
« Reply #60 on: June 27, 2023, 09:35:30 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on June 27, 2023, 06:46:12 PM
SPelli, you never answered the question.  Are you John Salza?

Nope, I'm not John Salza.
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Offline SPelli

Re: What Papal Docuмents Support the Ordination or the Consecration etc..
« Reply #61 on: June 27, 2023, 10:02:31 PM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on June 27, 2023, 06:42:02 PM
This is utterly ridiculous.  "You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop." doesn't even come close to invoking the Holy Spirit to actually make the man a bishop. 

You quoted a half sentence of the form.  This is the official English translation of the entire sentence (I'm still trying to locate the Latin):  "Father, you know what is in every heart. Inspire the heart of your servant whom you have chosen to make a bishop."  Only an idiot would deny that this signifies that the person is being raised to the bishopric, considering that it is part of the form itself.


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You could lead up to it until you're blue in the face.  "We're about to make this man a bishop.

It doesn't say we're "about to" (future tense) make this man a bishop.  It says "inspire the heart of your servant whom you [God] have chosen to make a bishop."



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Ladislaus: There's only one passage in the preface that could be construed as asking God and the Holy Sprit to make THIS individual (designated by the laying on of hands) into a bishop, and those are the lines regarding surrounding the phrase "spiritum principalem".

And that sentence precedes the one in which the half sentence you quoted above appears. This sentence clearly asks the Father to pour out upon the one being consecrated the same Spirit that Christ bestowed on the Apostles Holy Ghost. Let us again read the second half of the consecration prayer in context:


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Now pour out upon this chosen one that power which flows from you, the perfect Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit whom he gave to the apostles, who established the Church in every place as the sanctuary where your name would always be praised and glorified.
 Father, you know what is in every heart. Inspire the heart of your servant whom you have chosen to make a bishop. May he feed your holy flock and exercise the high priesthood without blame, ministering to you day and night to reconcile us with you and to offer the gifts of your Church.  By the Spirit of this priesthood may he have the power to forgive sins, as you commanded. May he assign the duties of the flock according to your will and loose every bond by the power you gave the apostles. May his gentleness and singleness of purpose stand before you as an offering through your Son Jesus Christ. Through him glory and power and honor are yours, with the Holy Spirit in the Church, now and for ever.

1) Pour out on the chosen one the Perfect [governing] Spirit, the same Spirit that Christ gave to the Apostles.
2) You have chosen to make this man a bishop.
3) May he feed thy holy flock (which is the teaching office of a bishop)
4) May he minister to you (God), by reconciling us and offering the gifts of you Holy Church; may he have the power to forgive sins (the office of sanctification)
5) May he assign the duties to the flock, and loose every bond by the power that Christ gave to the Apostles (governing office of a bishop)
 
The threefold office of teaching, governing and sanctifying, which is proper to a bishop, is clearly signified in the form.


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Ladislaus: You can keep trying to argue this, but your claim that it's "undeniably valid" is laughable.

What is laughable is your desperate attempt to cast doubt on it.  A Catholics should be happy to learn that the new rite of episcopal consecration is valid, yet you're not.  Why do you think that is?



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Offline SPelli

Re: What Papal Docuмents Support the Ordination or the Consecration etc..
« Reply #62 on: June 27, 2023, 10:10:44 PM »
Quote from: Angelus on June 27, 2023, 09:07:24 PM
A couple of corrections are needed to what SPelli has said:

1. While SPelli is correct that the ENTIRE Preface is "the form" of the Sacrament, it is false that there is only one sentence in that "form" that is "required for validity." Let's look at the actual Latin in Sacramentum Ordinis as evidence of the contrary:

LATIN:  "Forma autem constat verbis « Praefationis », quorum haec sunt essentialia ideoque ad valorem requisita..."

ENGLISH:  "The form consists [constat] of the words of the "Preface", of which these are essential and therefore required for signification [ad valorem]..."

The latin phrase "ad valorum" does not mean "validity" in Sacramentum Ordinis. For proof of this, use Find in your browser to search Sacramentum Ordinis (in Latin) for the stem "valid." You will see five words using the actual Latin word used to mean "validity" by Pius XII.

I was quoting the English translation.  But saying the sentence in question is required for signification, means it is required for validity, since validity requires that the form sufficiently signify the effect, which it won't do if it doesn't include that which is "required for signification."
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Offline Giovanni Berto

Re: What Papal Docuмents Support the Ordination or the Consecration etc..
« Reply #63 on: June 27, 2023, 10:11:22 PM »
Quote from: SPelli on June 27, 2023, 10:02:31 PM
...A Catholics should be happy to learn that the new rite of episcopal consecration is valid...

I don't quite understand the reasoning behind this affirmation.

Why would we be happy that the new rite is (supposedly) valid?

I would be happy if it was invalid, so there would be much less sacrileges and profanations  happening on Novus Ordo masses.
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Offline SPelli

Re: What Papal Docuмents Support the Ordination or the Consecration etc..
« Reply #64 on: June 27, 2023, 10:19:17 PM »
Quote from: Giovanni Berto on June 27, 2023, 10:11:22 PM
I don't quite understand the reasoning behind this affirmation.

Why would we be happy that the new rite is (supposedly) valid?

 Because the absolutions given by the bishops and priests they ordain would be valid, and hence more souls would be saved, and because the Masses they celebrated would be valid, and hence Catholics throughout the would not be committing idolatry 24/7 by worshipping bread. Those are a few obvious reasons that any sane Catholic would be happy to learn that the NREC is valid.
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