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Author Topic: What Papal Docuмents Support the Ordination or the Consecration etc..  (Read 6397 times)

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Offline Giovanni Berto

Re: What Papal Docuмents Support the Ordination or the Consecration etc..
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2023, 07:12:58 PM »
Quote from: SPelli on June 26, 2023, 06:06:13 PM
I've read Fr. Cekada's articles. They might have the appearance of being comprehensive, but they aren't.  One of the many flaws in his argument is that in trying to prove that the form does not signify that the person is being raised to the bishopric, he only quotes the essential words of the form (one sentence), even though the form consists of the entire consecration prayer, as Paul VI himself explicitly stated.  And the very next sentence of the form said the person has been chosen for the office of bishops.

I have never heard of such distinction. The form are the essential words. It doesn't make sense otherwise.
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Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: What Papal Docuмents Support the Ordination or the Consecration etc..
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2023, 07:21:11 PM »
Quote from: SPelli on June 26, 2023, 06:06:13 PM
I've read Fr. Cekada's articles. They might have the appearance of being comprehensive, but they aren't.  One of the many flaws in his argument is that in trying to prove that the form does not signify that the person is being raised to the bishopric, he only quotes the essential words of the form (one sentence), even though the form consists of the entire consecration prayer, as Paul VI himself explicitly stated.  And the very next sentence of the form said the person has been chosen for the office of bishops.

Ridiculous, dishonest, and idiotic.  "You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop."  That's not any kind of form whatsoever.  There's no calling down of the Holy Spirit, no prayer or call to action of any kind, but a statement of purported past fact, and it doesn't even say that "You have made him a bishop." just that you have "chosen" him to be a bishop.  You can be chosen long before you're actually consecrated.  This is pretty sad.  There's only one part that could possibly qualify as essential form, and it's the "governing spirit" section ... which Father Cekada tore to shreds.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: What Papal Docuмents Support the Ordination or the Consecration etc..
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2023, 08:00:19 PM »
The overall, summary argument against the New Rites is that...if they are valid, then all new rite cardinals, bishops, priests are valid.  Which means the V2 "church" is 100% legitimate (at least from an operational perspective.)

On the contrary, if "legitimacy" was new-rome's goal, they would have kept the consecration/ordination rites "as is", with no changes, and simply changed the 'new mass' as they did, by way of Paul 6's "updates".

But "legitimacy" was not the goal...but "chaos".  As the Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ goal tells us, 'order out of chaos'...which means that V2's goal, including the new consecration, ordination, and new mass formulas, was to introduce 'chaos' and confusion.

So the freemasons changed both priestly rites (consecration/ordination) and priestly functions (new sacraments/new mass). 

They changed/touched every aspect of catholicism, and abused it, just like Our Lord's Holy Body was bruised and abused in every aspect...
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Offline SPelli

Re: What Papal Docuмents Support the Ordination or the Consecration etc..
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2023, 08:10:50 PM »
Quote from: Giovanni Berto on June 26, 2023, 07:12:58 PM
I have never heard of such distinction. The form are the essential words. It doesn't make sense otherwise.


The following is taken  from the Apostolic Constitution Novi ritus approbantur ad ordinationem Diaconi, Presbyteri et Episcopi (new rites approved for the ordination of deacons, priests and bishops), by Paul; VI, dated June 18, 1968:

Quote
Finally, in the ordination of the Bishop the matter is the laying on of hands on the head of the elect, which is done in silence by the consecrating Bishops, or at least by the principal consecrator before the ordination prayer; the form is constituted by the words of the ordination prayer itself, of which the following are essential, and therefore required for validity: Pour out now upon this Chosen One the power that comes from you, O Father, your Spirit who rules and guides: you gave it to your beloved Son Jesus Christ and he transmitted it to the holy Apostles who in different parts of the earth founded the Church as your sanctuary in Glory and perennial praise of your name.  Constitutio Apostolica Pontificalis Romani | Paulus PP. VI (vatican.va)
Here is the entire form, or consecration prayer, of the new rite of episcopal consecration:
 
Quote
THE ORDINATION OF A BISHOP 
Prayer of consecration
 
Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, merciful God, bringing comfort to all, from your heavenly home you look with care on the lowest of your creatures, knowing all things even before they come to be. Your life-giving revelation has laid down rules for your Church, the just people of Abraham upon whom you had set your mark from the beginning: in that Church you have established a government and priesthood, so as not to leave your sanctuary without its liturgy; and from the beginning of the world it has pleased you to be glorified by the ministers whom you have chosen:
 
Now pour out upon this chosen one that power which flows from you, the perfect Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit whom he gave to the apostles, who established the Church in every place as the sanctuary where your name would always be praised and glorified.
  
Father, you know what is in every heart. Inspire the heart of your servant whom you have chosen to make a bishop. May he feed your holy flock and exercise the high priesthood without blame, ministering to you day and night to reconcile us with you and to offer the gifts of your Church.  By the Spirit of this priesthood may he have the power to forgive sins, as you commanded. May he assign the duties of the flock according to your will and loose every bond by the power you gave the apostles. May his gentleness and singleness of purpose stand before you as an offering through your Son Jesus Christ. Through him glory and power and honor are yours, with the Holy Spirit in the Church, now and for ever.
 
Amen.   026-The-Ordination-of-Deacons-Priests-and-Bishops.pdf  see page 225

That' the form of episcopal consecration, and it more clearly signifies that the person is being consecrated to the bishopric than does the form used in the traditional form.  

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Offline Giovanni Berto

Re: What Papal Docuмents Support the Ordination or the Consecration etc..
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2023, 09:00:32 PM »
Quote from: SPelli on June 26, 2023, 08:10:50 PM

The following is taken  from the Apostolic Constitution Novi ritus approbantur ad ordinationem Diaconi, Presbyteri et Episcopi (new rites approved for the ordination of deacons, priests and bishops), by Paul; VI, dated June 18, 1968:

Here is the entire form, or consecration prayer, of the new rite of episcopal consecration:

That' the form of episcopal consecration, and it more clearly signifies that the person is being consecrated to the bishopric than does the form used in the traditional form. 

Are you sure that you know what "essential form" means?

If there is a problem with the essential form, the rest is irrelevant.

This is simple logic.
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