Author Topic: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?  (Read 1730 times)

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Offline Jaynek

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Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2017, 07:04:35 PM »
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  • Lol. Are you serious?
    What you just said is EXACTLY what I said.
    Their baptisms are nevertheless presumed invalid by the Church because Mormons deny the Trinity, and an Arian baptism would be invalid for exactly the same reasons: the intention is wrong. People who deny the Trinity cannot intend to do what the Church does with the formula "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit".

    Are you always this intentionally obtuse?
    The word "intention" has a very specific meaning in the context of Sacramental theology.  There is a danger that we will think we know what it means because we are familiar with it in our everyday language, but it is different.  It is important to understand how the word is used as a technical theological term in order to properly grasp the Church teaching.  I gave several citations to help with this.

    Jews deny the Trinity and yet it is possible for a Jew to perform a valid baptism (See Cardinal Billot quote.)  The Mormon denial of the Trinity is not what makes their baptism invalid.  

    You do not properly understand why Mormon baptisms are invalid so you are drawing an incorrect conclusion about Arian baptisms.  Perhaps it would help if you reread the passages that I have cited.  Ladislaus is giving good explanations too.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #31 on: November 06, 2017, 07:04:48 PM »
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  • It is a distinction that was lacking, at least in clarity; perhaps a bit of acknowledgment is in order?
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #32 on: November 06, 2017, 07:10:52 PM »
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  • In any case, what I said about Arian baptisms stands: an "Arian" baptism is no different to a "Mormon" baptism. No, NOT an Arian performing a Catholic baptism.
    Arians considered themselves to be Catholics and therefore they intended their baptisms to be Catholic baptisms.  To the best of their knowledge, they thought they were doing what the Church does.  That meets the requirement for Sacramental intent.  This is not affected by their doctrinal errors.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #33 on: November 06, 2017, 07:13:38 PM »
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  • It is a distinction that was lacking, at least in clarity; perhaps a bit of acknowledgment is in order?
    It is likely that I am not explaining it well.  It is a complicated topic.  And it is especially confusing that "intent" has a different meaning than we are used to.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #34 on: November 06, 2017, 07:25:54 PM »
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  • It is likely that I am not explaining it well.  It is a complicated topic.  And it is especially confusing that "intent" has a different meaning than we are used to.
    I think we'll survive this round ma'am.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #35 on: November 06, 2017, 09:55:08 PM »
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  • Please stop being presumptuous. There is nothing in what I have written that indicates a misunderstanding unless you take me out of context. I agree precisely with all the quoted passages, and I maintain that ARIAN BAPTISMS are invalid just as are MORMON BAPTISMS because both, in denying the Trinity, mean by "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"  something entirely different from what the Church means by them, to the point that their intention in administering and receiving Mormon baptisms, in the context of their baptismal rites, cannot be the to do what the Catholic Church does, i.e., he intends to do what the  LDS church does and that is to baptise someone into the LDS church and its three strange beigns of Mormon theology and only Mormons know what else, and this intention is blatantly and publically manifest. THis is totally different to the case of a Mormon performing a Catholic baptism.
    The document I referenced, which clealry states that there is a deficiency in intention of the celebrating minister of a Mormon baptisms due to their understanding of God:
    III. The Intention of the Celebrating Minister.
    Such doctrinal diversity, regarding the very notion of God, prevents the minister of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints from having the intention of doing what the Catholic Church does when she confers Baptism, that is, doing what Christ willed her to do when he instituted and mandated the sacrament of Baptism ...

    ... The Mormon minister, who must necessarily be the "priest" (cf. D&C 20:38-58.107:13.14.20), therefore radically formed in their own doctrine, cannot have any other intention than that of doing what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does, which is quite different in respect to what the Catholic Church intends to do when it baptizes, that is, the conferral of the sacrament of Baptism instituted by Christ, which means participation in his death and resurrection (cf. Rom 6,3-11; Col 2,12-13).

    If there is error here it was in my saying that they also have valid form, when it's just the objective formula but not the substance of the words (as I said, one may as well baptise in the name of Hindu deities). But this is semantics: if we look at form instead of intention, the same argument applies again to both Mormons and Arians. Arians understood somehting radically different by the Trinitarian formula.

    An Arian performing a Catholic baptisms, fine, but an Arian performing an Arian baptism? How is that ontologically different to a Mormon baptism?


    For the Arians do not baptize into Father and Son, but into Creator and creature, and into Maker and work. And as a creature is other than the Son, so the Baptism, which is supposed to be given by them, is other than the truth, though they pretend to name the Name of the Father and the Son, because of the words of Scripture, For not he who simply says, 'O Lord,' gives Baptism; but he who with the Name has also the right faith. On this account therefore our Saviour also did not simply command to baptize, but first says, 'Teach;' then thus: 'Baptize into the Name of Father, and Son, and Holy Ghost;' that the right faith might follow upon learning, and together with faith might come the consecration of Baptism. St. Athanasius, Against the Arians, 2:18:42.


    Here Athanaius plainly says  that though the Arians (after Nicea) use the name sof Father and Son, they really baptise into the "Creator and creature" because of their false understanding of the Trinity.

    Also, Mormons aren't heretics. One has to be a validly baptised Christian to be a heretic and a believer in the Trinity and Incarnation to be Christian. I'm not sure I'd call Arians, at least post-Nicea, heretics either.
    The document you referenced to show that Mormon baptisms are invalid itself says: "Precisely because of the necessity of Baptism for salvation the Catholic Church has had the tendency of broadly recognizing this right intention in the conferring of this sacrament, even in the case of a false understanding of Trinitarian faith, as for example in the case of the Arians."

    If you would like a pre-V2 source, here is a dialogue written by St. Jerome that mentions that baptisms by Arians are valid. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3005.htm
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #36 on: November 07, 2017, 01:50:40 AM »
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  • Really regretting using that example.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #37 on: November 07, 2017, 06:05:00 AM »
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  • Oh, I'm sure that still happens but I hear fewer and fewer reports of it.  And, actually, the new translation of the Novus Ordo Mass accurately translates the words of consecration so that the NOM might even be valid ... especially when the 1st Canon (=very close to the Tridentine Canon) is used.
    I wonder if there are "fewer and fewer reports" because it happens less often or if the people are so inured by such things and so ignorant of the faith that no one even thinks its something that should be reported.

    When I and my family got up and left the service when the priest made up obviously invalidating words of Consecration, we were the only ones to do so.  In fact, when I later talked with a few others who are there, they either said that they weren't paying attention and didn't hear anything wrong or, as one man replied, "Oh, Father is always doing crazy stuff.  What does it matter?"  


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #38 on: November 07, 2017, 12:39:34 PM »
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  • LOL, I thought the thread said "What % of Norvus Ordo bishops are invalid?"

    I was going to say that I don't think there are many valid bishops left, like maybe one dozen.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #39 on: November 07, 2017, 12:40:44 PM »
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  • LOL, I thought the thread said "What % of Norvus Ordo bishops are invalid?"

    I was going to say that I don't think there are many valid bishops left, like maybe one dozen.

    If you don't count the Eastern Rites as "Novus Ordo".  They're all valid.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #40 on: November 07, 2017, 12:43:54 PM »
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  • I wonder if there are "fewer and fewer reports" because it happens less often or if the people are so inured by such things and so ignorant of the faith that no one even thinks its something that should be reported.

    I think that it's happening less, personally.  People have reacted against the original Hippie Novus Ordo generation where they threw out all "formulae" as evil due to lack of spontaneity.  I know a large number of Novus Ordo priests, and by and large they are much more conservative (admittedly a relative term) than the Hippie priests from the 70s and early 80s.  There was a slight counter-reaction against the radical Hippie priest revolution.


    Offline reconquest

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #41 on: November 07, 2017, 01:34:44 PM »
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  • I was baptized in the Novus Ordo in the 1990s. Earlier this year I found a video of my original baptism and showed it to several priests (1 Resistance and 4 SSPX) and all of them agreed that it was doubtful due to defective matter (instead of pouring, sprinkling or immersion the priest traced a sign of the cross with the water on my forehead) and that I should be conditionally baptized.
    "There's a mix of passion and shortsightedness in me, even when I'm positive that I'm doing my very best to see things for what they are, that warns me that I'll never know for sure. Undoubtedly I must follow the truth I can see, I have no choice and I must live on; but that is for me only, not to impose on others." - Fr. Leonardo Castellani

    Offline ranlare

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #42 on: November 28, 2017, 12:15:07 AM »
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  • Marie Julie Jahenny prophesied about there being a blasphemous... red (commie) religion that would have "new sacraments ... new baptisms." 



    "More souls go to Hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason." -Our Lady of Fatima, to Jacinta Marto

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #43 on: November 28, 2017, 09:23:01 AM »
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  • I was baptized in the Novus Ordo in the 1990s. Earlier this year I found a video of my original baptism and showed it to several priests (1 Resistance and 4 SSPX) and all of them agreed that it was doubtful due to defective matter (instead of pouring, sprinkling or immersion the priest traced a sign of the cross with the water on my forehead) and that I should be conditionally baptized.

    Well, it's essential that the water flow across the skin, so IMO valid; water moved across your skin as the sign of the cross was being made. BUT ... since this method is not one of the three officially recognized in Catholic ritual, it would make sense to do a conditional.

     

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