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Author Topic: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?  (Read 1939 times)

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Offline Geremia

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Our Lady of Good Success on difficulty of children being baptized & confirmed
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2017, 05:33:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Our Lady of Good Success
    Woe to the children of these times [i.e., 20th century]! It will be difficult to receive the Sacrament of Baptism and also the Sacrament of Confirmation.
    (source: The Story of Our Lady of Good Success and Novena)
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #16 on: November 06, 2017, 03:02:56 PM »
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  • He was not baptized by an Arian. The bishop who baptized him had already recanted and accepted the Nicene creed.
    I hope that is accurate.  This is the first time I've ever heard this.


    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #17 on: November 06, 2017, 03:09:42 PM »
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  • According to Canon 742 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law, non-solemn baptism "can be administered by anyone, preserving the required matter, form, and intention."

    This was only allowed in cases of danger of death, but it shows the minimum required for validity.  The person administering the baptism does not need to be Catholic or Christian.  A pagan or Jew, for example, could do an emergency baptism. The intention needs to be the intent to do what the Church does, even if the person has an imperfect understanding of Catholic teaching on baptism or anything else.

    An Arian would probably perform a valid baptism.  I cannot imagine under what circumstances a Mormon would intend to perform a Catholic baptism, but it is theoretically possible.  The faith of the person performing the baptism does not affect its validity.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #18 on: November 06, 2017, 03:21:33 PM »
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  • Here is Cardinal Billot's explanation of what "the intention to do what the Church does" means:

    Quote
    The intention of doing what the Church does, whatever that may be in 
    the opinion of him who administers the sacrament, is said to be required.
    Thus St. Thomas: "Although he who does not believe that baptism is a
    sacrament, or does not believe that it has any spiritual power, does not
    intend when he baptizes to confer a sacrament, nevertheless he intends to
    do what the Church does, even if he counts that as nothing; and because the
    Church intends to do something, therefore, as a consequence of this, he
    intends implicitly to do something, though not explicitly."[1] But it is
    not necessary that the minister think as the Church does, or that he not
    err concerning her teaching; for it is enough if his intention is towards
    something which is identically that which the Church intends, or, something
    which amounts to the same thing, for example, if he intends to do that
    which Christ instituted, or which is commanded in the Gospel, or which
    Christians are accustomed to do according to the prescription of their
    religion. (Thus it is apparent how even a Jew or a pagan can have an
    intention sufficient for baptizing. Consider for example a catechumen
    placed in a moment of necessity, who asks a pagan saying, "Do for me, I
    entreat you, this mercy, that you pour water on me, pronouncing the words,
    'I baptize you,' etc., with the intention of doing what I myself intend to
    receive according to the prescription of the law of Christians.)

    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #19 on: November 06, 2017, 04:20:50 PM »
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  • Catholic baptism? Mormons have the correct matter and form in their baptisms. They use water and the proper Trinitarian formula. They're baptisms are nevertheless presumed invalid by the Church because Mormons deny the Trinity, and an Arian baptism would be invalid for exactly the same reasons: the intention is wrong. People who deny the Trinity cannot intend to do what the Church does with the formula "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit".

    In any case, for persosn above the age of reason this is absolutely impossible. TO quote Ott, "The justification of an adult is not possible without Faith (De fide)". As Trent declares of justification, "the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified" But what is this faith? Look at the Athanasian creed please: the Trinity and Incarnation are absolutely essential to it. There is no faith without them.
    Yes, I agree that a Mormon baptism is invalid.  I said that if a Mormon intended to do a Catholic baptism, it could be valid.

    Consider this statement from Apostolicae Curae ():
    Quote
    The Church does not judge about the mind and intention, in so far as it is something by its nature internal; but in so far as it is manifested externally she is bound to judge concerning it. A person who has correctly and seriously used the requisite matter and form to effect and confer a sacrament is presumed for that very reason to have intended to do (intendisse)what the Church does. On this principle rests the doctrine that a Sacrament is truly conferred by the ministry of one who is a heretic or unbaptized, provided the Catholic rite be employed.
    The 2001 document that you cited concerning the lack of validity of Mormon baptism clearly acknowledges that this is an exception.

    Quote
    This explanation becomes even more necessary if one considers that errors of a doctrinal nature have never been considered sufficient to question the validity of the sacrament of Baptism. In fact, already in the middle of the third century Pope Stephen I, opposing the decisions of an African synod in 256 A.D., reaffirmed that the ancient practice of the imposition of hands as a sign of repentance should be maintained, but not the rebaptism of a heretic who enters the Catholic Church. In this way, the name of Christ attains great honour for faith and sanctification because whoever is baptized in the name of Christ, wherever that has taken place, has received the grace of Christ (cf. Denzinger-H√ľnermann [DH] 110-111). The same principle was upheld by the Synod of Arles in 314 (cf. DH 123). Well known also is the struggle of St Augustine against the Donatists. The Bishop of Hippo affirms that the validity of the sacrament depends neither on the personal sanctity of the minister nor on his belonging to the Church.

    The Council of Trent used even stronger wording:
    "If any one saith, that the baptism which is even given by heretics in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, with the intention of doing what the Church doth, is not true baptism; let him be anathema."
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is


    Offline Geremia

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #20 on: November 06, 2017, 05:34:23 PM »
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  • I would presume 0%, as with Mormons, that is, baptisms performed by and upon those denying the Trinity and Incarnation can't possibly be valid.
    Interesting point
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    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #21 on: November 06, 2017, 05:45:45 PM »
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  • Interesting point
    Oh yeah? If you like that "interesting point", then consider, for real world, life and death, example in the military, right now, where anyone can validly baptize.

    Lotta Mormons there, including snipers (typically two man), ODA/ODD, Humint teams, CAT detachments, etc., etc., etc.

    (Bear in mind, we're invoking the Consillier "Church" here as well)
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #22 on: November 06, 2017, 05:53:24 PM »
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  • I would presume 0%, as with Mormons, that is, baptisms performed by and upon those denying the Trinity and Incarnation can't possibly be valid.
    It is not their heretical beliefs that make Mormon baptisms invalid.  In general, heretics can validly baptize.  In the case of Mormons, what they mean by "Father, Son, and Holy Spirity" is so different from what the Church means by those words, that Mormon baptisms are considered to lack correct form.

    So Kreuzritter is not making an "interesting point".  He is incorrect.
    Most sweet Jesus, whose overflowing charity for men is requited by so much forgetfulness, negligence and contempt, behold us prostrate before you, eager to repair by a special act of homage the cruel indifference and injuries to which your loving Heart is


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #23 on: November 06, 2017, 06:04:45 PM »
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  • I don't know.  I note that it was in 2005 when the Novus Ordo priest in my parish decided to make up his own words for the Consecration at Mass.

    Oh, I'm sure that still happens but I hear fewer and fewer reports of it.  And, actually, the new translation of the Novus Ordo Mass accurately translates the words of consecration so that the NOM might even be valid ... especially when the 1st Canon (=very close to the Tridentine Canon) is used.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #24 on: November 06, 2017, 06:07:58 PM »
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  • Consider that if the priest makes it clear that his intention is limited to "welcoming the child into the community", I wonder if his intention is sufficient for validity.  

    I have a different take on intention.  Essentially, if the priest intends to follow the rite of the Church, then the intention to DO what the Church does is there ... even if the priest doesn't believe as the Church does.  Now, when they start taking liberties with the rite, one might very well question that intention to DO as the Church does.  That's why an atheist can validly baptized.  As long as the atheist intends, "I'm doing this thing that Catholics do." (even if thinking all the while ... "this is a bunch of bunk that does nothing"), it would still be valid ... because he's intending to DO what the Church DOES.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #25 on: November 06, 2017, 06:09:12 PM »
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  • Don't think of elephants.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #26 on: November 06, 2017, 06:13:25 PM »
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  • The intention needs to be the intent to do what the Church does, even if the person has an imperfect understanding of Catholic teaching on baptism or anything else.

    THIS ^^^

    And I would go a step further.  Let's take the example of a priest who's really a Mason or Communist who infiltrated the priesthood.  He's offering a Tridentine Mass and saying the words of the rite and performing the prescribed actions.  In his head he's thinking, "I do NOT intend to do what the Church does."  IMO, that would STILL be a valid Mass because he's intending to perform the actions that the Church does and to say the words that the Church does for the rite of Mass.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #27 on: November 06, 2017, 06:17:29 PM »
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  • Here is Cardinal Billot's explanation of what "the intention to do what the Church does" means:

    THIS ^^^

    We have the classic example of people creating scruples about the validity of Archbishop Lefebvre on the grounds that +Lienart was a freemason.  But this correct explanation of intention (from Billot) eliminates all doubt and scruple about nonsense like this.  No one can read the mind of the person conferring the Sacrament, so DOING what the Church does suffices.  Only if the person is insane, pretty much, would a Sacrament be invalid.  So, for instance, the classic case of a senile priest who walks past a bakery and prounounces the words of consecration.  That's NOT what the Church does and would be invalid.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #28 on: November 06, 2017, 06:18:45 PM »
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  • People who deny the Trinity cannot intend to do what the Church does with the formula "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit".

    Completely disagree.  That's why atheists can even baptize.  See the Billot citation made by Jaynek.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #29 on: November 06, 2017, 06:56:09 PM »
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  • How is it that we can reasonably assume that a Mormon is a heretic at all?
    "Lord, have mercy".

     

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