Author Topic: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?  (Read 1578 times)

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Offline Geremia

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What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
« on: November 03, 2017, 03:55:44 PM »
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  • What percentage of baptisms performed in Novus Ordo churches by Novus Ordo priests are invalid?

    I've heard stories of people being baptized in the names of the "God, Redeemer, and Sanctifier" or some other invalid form. How common is this?
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    Offline PG

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #1 on: November 03, 2017, 04:24:29 PM »
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  •  I won't explain my reasoning, but I wouldn't be surprised if the number is 40% who are just in general doing it wrong whenever it comes to essential prayers.  It doesn't matter what sacrament it is, when it comes to something essential in the sacrament I think at least 40% probably get it wrong.
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Online JPaul

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #2 on: November 03, 2017, 04:33:55 PM »
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  • What percentage of baptisms performed in Novus Ordo churches by Novus Ordo priests are invalid?

    I've heard stories of people being baptized in the names of the "God, Redeemer, and Sanctifier" or some other invalid form. How common is this?
    Enough that they are all suspect. Being welcomed into the community is not the same as being initiated into the Eternal Kingdom.
    When is the last sermon that you have heard that was preaching against the sacramental deficiencies of the conciliar religion??

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #3 on: November 03, 2017, 05:37:29 PM »
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  • I won't attempt to guess a percentage.  I DO know that my "first" Confirmation was invalid due to defect of form and matter.  The other five dozen or so with me were also not Confirmed.  I know the baptisms of both my nephews, in 1998 and 2007 are invalid.  The form was wrong in both, and matter in the second.  

    The Confirmandi high schoolers wrote "a creative liturgy" which the Bishop used in 1974.  There was no oil used, but I recall processing outside in a conga line to the beat of bongo drums and a sitar.  There was a group photo with the bishop, then everyone went home.  Decades later, I requested a record of this and all that was found was a yellowed sheet of loose-leaf paper with penciled names  some checked, some crossed off, some with question marks.  This was stuck in the back of a large binder from the parish which has since gone out of existence.  The binder was in the basement of neighboring parish.  There is no record with the diocesan headquarters.  

    At both baptisms, the words, "You are initiated a child of the Father, the Creator, the Spirit. Welcome to the family of God," were substituted.  At the 2007 baptism, a "eucharistic minister" sprinkled holy (?) water while the priest (?) said the incorrect words from his wheelchair.  He had broken both arms and legs in an auto accident, and was therefore literally unable to baptise anyone.

    It's just as well on the baptisms because the children haven't entered a house of worship since.  They were raised "not-religious." They were baptized to appease an elderly relative whose house they were living in, free of charge. 

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #4 on: November 04, 2017, 01:01:32 AM »
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  • I won't attempt to guess a percentage.  I DO know that my "first" Confirmation was invalid due to defect of form and matter.  The other five dozen or so with me were also not Confirmed.  I know the baptisms of both my nephews, in 1998 and 2007 are invalid.  The form was wrong in both, and matter in the second.  

    The Confirmandi high schoolers wrote "a creative liturgy" which the Bishop used in 1974.  There was no oil used, but I recall processing outside in a conga line to the beat of bongo drums and a sitar.  There was a group photo with the bishop, then everyone went home.  Decades later, I requested a record of this and all that was found was a yellowed sheet of loose-leaf paper with penciled names  some checked, some crossed off, some with question marks.  This was stuck in the back of a large binder from the parish which has since gone out of existence.  The binder was in the basement of neighboring parish.  There is no record with the diocesan headquarters.  

    At both baptisms, the words, "You are initiated a child of the Father, the Creator, the Spirit. Welcome to the family of God," were substituted.  At the 2007 baptism, a "eucharistic minister" sprinkled holy (?) water while the priest (?) said the incorrect words from his wheelchair.  He had broken both arms and legs in an auto accident, and was therefore literally unable to baptise anyone.

    It's just as well on the baptisms because the children haven't entered a house of worship since.  They were raised "not-religious." They were baptized to appease an elderly relative whose house they were living in, free of charge.
    Lord have mercy.
    .
    I did not realize it was that bad now having not been inside a Novus Ordo church since 1993.
    .
    The few clown masses that are on youtube have been quite shocking.
    Lord have mercy.


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #5 on: November 04, 2017, 01:44:47 AM »
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  • Lord have mercy.
    .
    I did not realize it was that bad now having not been inside a Novus Ordo church since 1993.
    .
    The few clown masses that are on youtube have been quite shocking.
    What percentage of, say, Arian Baptisms are/were invalid?

    Matter, Form, Minister, Intention...

    "Don't think of Elephants..."

    It's a trick question anyway, if unwitting; why? Because, sacramentally speaking, there's no such thing as a NO baptism, a Protestant Baptism, an Anglican Baptism etc., etc....

    May as well ask about the validity of Atheist Baptisms.

    Stolen goods are just that, stolen goods.

    It's just slightly odd that the less muddied "
    What percentage of baptisms performed in Novus Ordochurches by Novus Ordo priests are invalid?" from the body of the OP wasn't used.

    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #6 on: November 04, 2017, 01:47:35 AM »
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  • What percentage of, say, Arian Baptisms are/were invalid?

    Matter, Form, Minister, Intention...

    "Don't think of Elephants..."

    It's a trick question anyway, if unwitting; why? Because, sacramentally speaking, there's no such thing as a NO baptism, a Protestant Baptism, an Anglican Baptism etc., etc....

    May as well ask about the validity of Atheist Baptisms.

    Stolen goods are just that, stolen goods.
    We have a saint, Saint Constantine.
    He was baptized on his deathbed by an Arian, was he not? Beggars cannot be choosers.
    Yet, he is venerated as a saint.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #7 on: November 04, 2017, 06:34:46 PM »
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  • I must admit years ago I attended a Family baptism of a new born infant.

    The Priest is known for his extreme liberalism and have long since left the Priesthood and
    the church.

    I remember that he used the following in the baptism:

    I baptized you in the Name of the Father, the mother, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    The infant who is one of my nephews grew up and is now a very radical leftist and atheist.



    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #8 on: November 04, 2017, 06:45:12 PM »
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  • I must admit years ago I attended a Family baptism of a new born infant.

    The Priest is known for his extreme liberalism and have long since left the Priesthood and
    the church.

    I remember that he used the following in the baptism:

    I baptized you in the Name of the Father, the mother, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

    The infant who is one of my nephews grew up and is now a very radical leftist and atheist.
    ... and wasn't Sacramentally baptized as a Catholic, at least at that time. 

    "... baptized..." past tense, using an invalidating, blasphemous, pagan, sacrilegious, possibly Mariolatrous, addition to an already mutilated Trinitarian formula.

    Not to say that he wasn't baptized at all, as you seem to imply. 

    All those "damnific", disgraced bestowed... sheesh. 

    I'm sorry man, that's an abominable and yet unsurprising story.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #9 on: November 04, 2017, 08:10:54 PM »
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  • We have a saint, Saint Constantine.
    He was baptized on his deathbed by an Arian, was he not? Beggars cannot be choosers.
    Yet, he is venerated as a saint.
    The Emperor Constantine who was baptized on his deathbed by an Arian bishop is not venerated as a saint. 

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #10 on: November 04, 2017, 08:14:23 PM »
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  • Perhaps this is a confusion with S. Constantius, but more likely it is bleed-through from following and venerating E. schismatics.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Maria Regina

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #11 on: November 05, 2017, 01:29:06 AM »
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  • The Emperor Constantine who was baptized on his deathbed by an Arian bishop is not venerated as a saint.
    He is considered to be a saint in the Melkite Eastern Catholic Church.
    I thought he was also venerated in the Roman Catholic Church too.
    Lord have mercy.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #12 on: November 05, 2017, 08:28:42 AM »
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  • This is pretty scary for those who deny God's Mercy in the Catholic belief of desire.  

    Since we all agree that the enemies of the Church were in place long before the novus ordo was law, I believe the date was April 3, 1969, but not sure about the actual date of the novus ordo being initiated.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #13 on: November 05, 2017, 11:13:01 AM »
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  • I get the impression that the Novus Or do is better about this now.  40% might be legit for the 70s but way too high nowadays.  Probably only 5% or less invalid now.

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: What % of Norvus Ordo baptisms are invalid?
    « Reply #14 on: November 05, 2017, 12:24:49 PM »
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  • I get the impression that the Novus Or do is better about this now.  40% might be legit for the 70s but way too high nowadays.  Probably only 5% or less invalid now.
    I don't know.  I note that it was in 2005 when the Novus Ordo priest in my parish decided to make up his own words for the Consecration at Mass.  If priests are making up their own Consecration formula in 2005, I'm sure their not going to be too "scrupulous" about making up their own baptismal formulas.  Perhaps forty percent is a little high, but five percent might be a little low.

    Consider that if the priest makes it clear that his intention is limited to "welcoming the child into the community", I wonder if his intention is sufficient for validity.  

     

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