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Author Topic: What Logically Stops a Valid Bishop From Attempting An Extraordinary Election?  (Read 686 times)

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Offline Xenophon

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We have in essence a simple solution but as far as I'm aware nobody dares to attempt it. I'd like to know why someone like Bp. Sanborn hasn't tried to elect a pope for example.

If there were no papal constitution on the election of the Supreme Pontiff; or if by some chance all the electors designated by law, that is, all the Cardinals, perished simultaneously, the right of election would pertain to the neighboring bishops and the Roman clergy, but with some dependence on a general council of bishops. 
Bellarmine's Controversies, De clericis, bk. I, ch. 10. (Translated by James Larrabee, with comments)
Chapter 10.


Eighth Proposition.

“The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians; and to him was committed in blessed Peter, by our lord Jesus Christ, the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church.” Council of Florence, Session 6


Offline Matthew

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We have in essence a simple solution but as far as I'm aware nobody dares to attempt it. I'd like to know why someone like Bp. Sanborn hasn't tried to elect a pope for example.

If there were no papal constitution on the ɛƖɛctıon of the Supreme Pontiff; or if by some chance all the electors designated by law, that is, all the Cardinals, perished simultaneously, the right of ɛƖɛctıon would pertain to the neighboring bishops and the Roman clergy, but with some dependence on a general council of bishops.
Bellarmine's Controversies, De clericis, bk. I, ch. 10. (Translated by James Larrabee, with comments)
Chapter 10.


Eighth Proposition.



What stops them?

Common sense. Knowledge of history.

Without universal acceptance, you end up being a curiosity, a laughing-stock to the rest of the world that DOESN'T accept your "papacy".

The Conclavist faction (yes, Sedevacantism is full of divisions and factions) of Sedevacantism has produced plenty of examples of this. Something Sedevacantists are very embarrassed about (and rightly so!) and are VERY quick to distance themselves from!
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Offline Xenophon

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What stops them?

Common sense. Knowledge of history.

Without universal acceptance, you end up being a curiosity, a laughing-stock to the rest of the world that DOESN'T accept your "papacy".

The Conclavist faction (yes, Sedevacantism is full of divisions and factions) of Sedevacantism has produced plenty of examples of this. Something Sedevacantists are very embarrassed about (and rightly so!) and are VERY quick to distance themselves from!
I'm actually not aware of anyone who has really tried to elect a pope excluding antipope Michael, which would actually be invalid simply because he was "elected" by a couple family members. Not to mention everything else that is wrong with him. I did meet some guy on Discord who claimed he was pope and that God chose him specifically through revelation. This obviously fails the criteria once again, due to the necessity of delegating to highest possible member of the hierarch which would be Bishops.

I would agree that we don't have in history any account of the specific problem of today, namely, not only a pope who has lost his office due to manifest heresy, but also the inculcation of heresy within all of the hierarchy. However, logically speaking St. Bellarmine teaches that the problem can be solved, something which everyone seems to be a bit afraid of. My estimation is that nobody really wants to do it or they personally feel incapable to be up for the task. Any Bp. Sanborn supporter on here could give their 2 cents on this.
“The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians; and to him was committed in blessed Peter, by our lord Jesus Christ, the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church.” Council of Florence, Session 6

Offline Matthew

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I'm actually not aware of anyone who has really tried to elect a pope excluding antipope Michael

Ha!

You are clearly wet behind the ears, at least with regards to the history of the Traditional movement. 

There are COUNTLESS antipopes or false claimants to the Papacy since Vatican II. I wish there were a convenient list somewhere, but this long academic paper will have to do.
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Offline Matthew

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Conclavist claimants to papacy
Pope Krav I. Mirko Fabris, elected in 1978 in Zagreb, Croatia, died in 2012.[1]
Pope Michael (1990). In 1990, Teresa Stanfill-Benns and David Bawden of Kansas in the US, called for a conclave to elect an antipope. They publicised their request around the world, but only six people participated in the election. On July 16, 1990, the six gathered in Belvue, Kansas, and elected Bawden who took the name Pope Michael.[1][6]
Pope Linus II (1994). Another conclave, this time held in Assisi, Italy, elected the South African Victor von Pentz, an ex-seminarian of the Society of St Pius X, as Pope Linus II in 1994. Linus took up residence in Hertfordshire, England.[1][7][8]
Pope Pius XIII (1998–2009). In October 1998, the U.S.-based "true Catholic Church" elected Friar Lucian Pulvermacher as Pope Pius XIII. He died on November 30, 2009. No successor has been named since his death.[1][8]
Pope Leo XIV (2006–2007). On 24 March 2006 a group of 34 episcopi vagantes elected the Argentine Oscar Michaelli as Pope Leo XIV. On his death on 14 February 2007, he was succeeded by Juan Bautista Cardinal Bonetti, who took the name of Pope Innocent XIV, but resigned on 29 May 2007. He was succeeded by Alejandro Tomás Cardinal Greico, who took the name of Pope Alexander IX.[1][8]
Mysticalists
Technically distinct from the conclavism claimants are the "popes" (sometimes called "mysticalists") whose claims to the papacy derive from alleged divine revelations or apparitions. In these cases, there is no "conclave" process.

Alleged divine appointment was the basis for the pre-Vatican II (1950) claim of Michel Collin (1905–1974) to the papacy as Clement XV.[9][10] Collin's sect survives, divided into different factions, to this day.

Mysticalist claimants

This section does not cite any sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2014) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
As can be seen, several of the mysticalists in the following list have styled themselves Pope Peter II, a name that has apocalyptic connotations in view of the "prophecy of Saint Malachy".

The leaders of the Palmarian Catholic Church
Pope Emmanuel, the Italian Gino Frediani (1913–1984), a priest of Gavinana, who asserted his claim in 1973.
Pope Peter II, Chester Olszewski of Pennsylvania, a former Episcopalian priest, who asserted his claim in 1977 or 1980
Pope Gregory XIX, the American Reinaldus Michael Benjamins, who asserted his claim in 1983.
Pope Adrian VII, better known to American Catholics as Francis Schuckardt of the Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen, who asserted his claim in 1984.
Pope Peter II, born Maurice Archieri, living in Paris or Le Perreux, France, who asserted his claim in 1995.
Pope Peter Romanus II, born William Kamm of Cologne, Germany, a convicted sex offender currently in prison in Australia. Kamm, who is known as the "Little Pebble", apparently does not currently pretend to the papacy, but is claimed to be the next pope in waiting.
Pope Peter II, born Aime Baudet, of Brussels, Belgium.
Pope Peter II, born Julius Tischler, a German, about whom little is apparently known.
Pope Peter-Athanasius II, who lives, according to different sources, in Brussels or in Canada.
Pope Leo XIV, of Angoulême, France.
Pope Gregory XVII, Jean-Gaston Tremblay of the Apostles of Infinite Love in Quebec: successor to "Clement XV" (Michel Collin)[11]
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Offline Xenophon

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Conclavist claimants to papacy
Pope Krav I. Mirko Fabris, elected in 1978 in Zagreb, Croatia, died in 2012.[1]
Pope Michael (1990). In 1990, Teresa Stanfill-Benns and David Bawden of Kansas in the US, called for a conclave to elect an antipope. They publicised their request around the world, but only six people participated in the ɛƖɛctıon. On July 16, 1990, the six gathered in Belvue, Kansas, and elected Bawden who took the name Pope Michael.[1][6]
Pope Linus II (1994). Another conclave, this time held in Assisi, Italy, elected the South African Victor von Pentz, an ex-seminarian of the Society of St Pius X, as Pope Linus II in 1994. Linus took up residence in Hertfordshire, England.[1][7][8]
Pope Pius XIII (1998–2009). In October 1998, the U.S.-based "true Catholic Church" elected Friar Lucian Pulvermacher as Pope Pius XIII. He died on November 30, 2009. No successor has been named since his death.[1][8]
Pope Leo XIV (2006–2007). On 24 March 2006 a group of 34 episcopi vagantes elected the Argentine Oscar Michaelli as Pope Leo XIV. On his death on 14 February 2007, he was succeeded by Juan Bautista Cardinal Bonetti, who took the name of Pope Innocent XIV, but resigned on 29 May 2007. He was succeeded by Alejandro Tomás Cardinal Greico, who took the name of Pope Alexander IX.[1][8]
Mysticalists
Technically distinct from the conclavism claimants are the "popes" (sometimes called "mysticalists") whose claims to the papacy derive from alleged divine revelations or apparitions. In these cases, there is no "conclave" process.

Alleged divine appointment was the basis for the pre-Vatican II (1950) claim of Michel Collin (1905–1974) to the papacy as Clement XV.[9][10] Collin's sect survives, divided into different factions, to this day.

Mysticalist claimants

This section does not cite any sources. Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (October 2014) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
As can be seen, several of the mysticalists in the following list have styled themselves Pope Peter II, a name that has apocalyptic connotations in view of the "prophecy of Saint Malachy".

The leaders of the Palmarian Catholic Church
Pope Emmanuel, the Italian Gino Frediani (1913–1984), a priest of Gavinana, who asserted his claim in 1973.
Pope Peter II, Chester Olszewski of Pennsylvania, a former Episcopalian priest, who asserted his claim in 1977 or 1980
Pope Gregory XIX, the American Reinaldus Michael Benjamins, who asserted his claim in 1983.
Pope Adrian VII, better known to American Catholics as Francis Schuckardt of the Congregation of Mary Immaculate Queen, who asserted his claim in 1984.
Pope Peter II, born Maurice Archieri, living in Paris or Le Perreux, France, who asserted his claim in 1995.
Pope Peter Romanus II, born William Kamm of Cologne, Germany, a convicted sex offender currently in prison in Australia. Kamm, who is known as the "Little Pebble", apparently does not currently pretend to the papacy, but is claimed to be the next pope in waiting.
Pope Peter II, born Aime Baudet, of Brussels, Belgium.
Pope Peter II, born Julius Tischler, a German, about whom little is apparently known.
Pope Peter-Athanasius II, who lives, according to different sources, in Brussels or in Canada.
Pope Leo XIV, of Angoulême, France.
Pope Gregory XVII, Jean-Gaston Tremblay of the Apostles of Infinite Love in Quebec: successor to "Clement XV" (Michel Collin)[11]
I really wasn't aware of all those, I guess they just didn't get famous with the exception of the Palmerians. It is an interesting thing to see. 
“The Roman pontiff is the true vicar of Christ, the head of the whole church and the father and teacher of all Christians; and to him was committed in blessed Peter, by our lord Jesus Christ, the full power of tending, ruling and governing the whole church.” Council of Florence, Session 6

Offline Prayerful

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Yes, as Matthew mentions, and anyone who reads a bit on tradition knows, conclavism is foolish. It leads unerringly to heresy and foolishness whether it's adding Our Trinity to the Trinity like the Palmarians do, or UFOs like the 'Renewed Catholic Church.' Most of these conclavists also end up with multiple schisms.

'Pope Michael' is not a good look.



Magnus Lundberg on one of these 'Popes, Chester Olszewski.' Magnus Lundberg, Professor of Church and Mission History at Upsala University, covers a great many of them. He has an e book on the Palmarians which he released for free. Fill yer boots, there's many, many 'Pope' on his website. 

There no worse idea for Catholic tradition than conclavism.

Offline MichaelFullerSSPX

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Bishop Sanborn is sedeprivationist and believes that Bergoglio may have been rightly designated pope by ecclesiastical law, but that the obstacle of heresy prevents him from assuming charge of that office. The logic behind that is that the designated pope must convert and become Catholic. The position is unwittingly very close to that of the resistance and Fr. Chazal, as others have pointed out. 


Offline RomanTheo

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Bishop Sanborn is sedeprivationist and believes that Bergoglio may have been rightly designated pope by ecclesiastical law, but that the obstacle of heresy prevents him from assuming charge of that office. The logic behind that is that the designated pope must convert and become Catholic. The position is unwittingly very close to that of the resistance and Fr. Chazal, as others have pointed out.


That's not what Sanborn believes.  The sedeprivationists theory that Sanborn defends maintains that for anyone to hold authority, they must have the habitual intention, objectively and subjectively, to promote the common good.  In other words, only those who are infallible and impeccable can hold authority in the Church.  Here is how des Laurier explains this absurdity:

Quote
"The primary and formal object, however, of the habit of authority is the making, promulgation and execution of laws. The formal object of law, however, is the promotion of the common good. It follows that he who enjoys authority must have the habitual intention of promoting the common good, as otherwise he cannot have authority. ... it is not sufficient that he who holds authority intends in his will the common good of the community, but rather the good which he intends must be the true and objective common good."

This has to be the most ridiculous post-Vatican II novelty yet.  
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Offline ElwinRansom1970

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Pope Linus II (1994). Another conclave, this time held in Assisi, Italy, elected the South African Victor von Pentz, an ex-seminarian of the Society of St Pius X, as Pope Linus II in 1994.


Von Pentz was at Winona the same time as Ladislaus and me. He was entertaining in a train wreck kind of way.
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  • Pope Linus II (1994). Another conclave, this time held in Assisi, Italy, elected the South African Victor von Pentz, an ex-seminarian of the Society of St Pius X, as Pope Linus II in 1994.


    Von Pentz was at Winona the same time as Ladislaus and me. He was entertaining in a train wreck kind of way.
    Do you or Ladislaus have any stories about him?