A certain person wrote a few stanzas and stated

outside
sedevacantism (a double negative!) there is no salvation!  How
many of these members would like to say as much but don't
only because they know Matthew won't tolerate that?  

Matthew doesn't tolerate dogmatic sedevacantists, true and I agree with him. I don't tolerate them either. My goal has never been to convert people to my way of thinking but merely defend and explain my course of action in the face of accusations. Some people are just curious or interested, it leads to some great conversations.

I don't think anyone would like to say it much less think it. In fact, I am certain it is a minority opinion among members who have recently discussed the issue here.

So, I'll put this question to fellow 'sedes'...

Do you believe that non-sedevacantists can be saved?

Let's put the myth to rest.

As for me, my own position remains that I am united to every Catholic, regardless of where they attend mass, their understanding of the crisis, and I believe especially that God will be merciful to all who live in these confusing, dark times.

Mabel wrote:

As for me, my own position remains that I am united to every Catholic, regardless of where they attend mass, their understanding of the crisis, and I believe especially that God will be merciful to all who live in these confusing, dark times.

Well written!  I remain united to every catholic on earth.  Sedevacantism is a response to the crisis, and while it is built on doctrine, it remains a non-binding conclusion.  

Whether someone is a sedevacantist or not has no bearing on their membership in the Church or their holiness.  

By the way, to that poster who said the horrible thing that Mabel quoted, I am not saying this to please Matthew, I am saying this because it is the truth.  While I respect this forum and Matthew, I am not a people pleaser.

A certain person wrote a few stanzas and stated

Quote

outside
sedevacantism (a double negative!) there is no salvation!  How
many of these members would like to say as much but don't
only because they know Matthew won't tolerate that?  

Matthew doesn't tolerate dogmatic sedevacantists, true and I agree with him. I don't tolerate them either. My goal has never been to convert people to my way of thinking but merely defend and explain my course of action in the face of accusations. Some people are just curious or interested, it leads to some great conversations.

I don't think anyone would like to say it much less think it. In fact, I am certain it is a minority opinion among members who have recently discussed the issue here.

So, I'll put this question to fellow 'sedes'...

Do you believe that non-sedevacantists can be saved?

Let's put the myth to rest.

As for me, my own position remains that I am united to every Catholic, regardless of where they attend mass, their understanding of the crisis, and I believe especially that God will be merciful to all who live in these confusing, dark times.

I stopped posting a long time ago in Catholic Answers forum in which I was active, circa 2007. I was never banned but it is counterproductive to post with people that you fundamentally disagree on the most important points. Where all they do is censor, Catholic magisterial teaching and allow the most perverse errors to go unimpeded. Then later in Fish Eaters I stopped participating because the whole Sedevacantism issue was banned (this is much before I embraced the position myself), and that is because Sedevacantists are Catholic even if I had really disagreed with them  :dwarf:. I will not participate in a place in principle that refuses communion with Catholics in principle, and I would highly recommend this to anyone else. It takes a lot of effort to do good intelligent well though posts. Many of those who help contribute are able to do many other things, but they do their part in sharing the faith. Having an education apostolate, for that I am grateful to all those who have shared good posts that are life changing sometimes. It is definitely in a Providential way how God has allowed for Catholics to comfort each other in charity. There is a real sense of communion of Saints, and this is something that should always be brought to light. Although many of us might not ever meet, one day in heaven if we persevere to the end. We might meet in the life to come, and we should always certainly say prayers before posting anything online.

What I am trying to get across is that any place which has the issue of Sedevacantism completely banned in its forum should not have any support from Catholics who believe that they are Catholic. In this forum at the very least we are given our little corner which is good enough, because it permits those interested in reading about the topic to have a way to ask questions etc... By posting in those places (where they break communion with Catholics) you bring only more crowds to their site. I try to be morally consistent with my principles and I think that if anyone is a sedeplenist that really feels that Sedevacantist are a bunch of hell bound heretics, if I were them I would not honestly participate in forums where the issue is allowed. I think the only time where this principle could be broken is if someone in some forum defames your name and you go to defend your honor. That would be legitimate to do, this is especially true for those who depend on their blog/websites as their primary source of income.

The difference is that they really do hold the error of religious liberty (dogmatic sedeplenist schismatics)... That error does indeed have rights... Prove your Catholicity by being consistent in both word and deed. There are ways in which one can show a profession of faith, without saying a word. Now I hope that this should completely put to rest, any other slanderer who would accuse me of violating forum rules. I read those rules and agree with them, if not I would not be here.

Laudare, Benedicere, et predicare...

I think I'm too early on in the process to honestly answer this question.  I definitely lean towards SV, but every once in awhile a post makes me wonder about it.  And then another comes along and I go back to SV again.  I often wonder whether either side can really say they are definitely right (and the other is definitely wrong).

 I have a friend who was like you, she is such a thoughtful person and we had some of the best conversations.

I believe and hope that God will be especially merciful to those in the NO system, some are too old and infirm of mind to grasp the issues, others are the product of an entire generation that has never seen true Catholicism. They wouldnt know where to start. I know I would have never been exposed were not for relatives having old books and also many of the TAN reprints.

Quote from: 2Vermont

I think I'm too early on in the process to honestly answer this question.  I definitely lean towards SV, but every once in awhile a post makes me wonder about it.  And then another comes along and I go back to SV again.  I often wonder whether either side can really say they are definitely right (and the other is definitely wrong).

 I have a friend who was like you, she is such a thoughtful person and we had some of the best conversations.

I believe and hope that God will be especially merciful to those in the NO system, some are too old and infirm of mind to grasp the issues, others are the product of an entire generation that has never seen true Catholicism. They wouldnt know where to start. I know I would have never been exposed were not for relatives having old books and also many of the TAN reprints.

Two great posts.  I was born just after conciliardom took over.  Luckily my parents were grounded in true Catholicism and maintained strong traditional leanings though we didn't have access nor were aware of traditional Catholicism surviving outside conciliardom.  As with Mabel, I had access to some pre-Vatican II publications that made me realize early on that much was amiss in conciliardom.

Much like 2Vermont, I have strong sede leanings.  I began having sede ideas as a teenager before I even knew the term.  But yet, years later when I encountered the concept here on CI as a more formal explanation, it was quite shocking to me and I did not immediately think it was correct.

But after reading much information, I became more comfortable with the idea and realized that is probably the fact of what is in play in the crisis.  Myrna had some things to say to me that's helped too.

But I am not sure that it is sedevacantism and certainly don't think one must believe it.  I wish it wasn't a real possibility.  But it isn't as dire as I initially perceived--the Church survives and will be provided what is needed to shepherd souls to Heaven, and I will continue doing the best I can in honoring and worshipping God as the Church has for hundreds of years and following what His Church has taught for hundreds of years.

Do I believe non-sedevacantists can be saved?  Yes.  As a matter of fact, I believe many non-sedevacantists will be saved just as I believe many sedevacantists will be damned.

The problem is not whom one believes to be the pope, but rather, what faith one has.  The Catholic Faith is knowable to all even when an anti-pope, such as Bergoglio, illegitimately holds power in the Vatican.  So many people ignore Bergoglio and quietly go about their daily business of working out their salvation in fear and trembling.

However, to the extent that people allow the likes of Bergoglio and the Conciliar church to form their consciences and their faith, a great many people will be lost.

What is it like to be a sedevacantist?  Peaceful.  One no longer has to try to find excuses for the pope.  One no longer has to be confused, wondering how my Catholic Faith that I learn from the Catechisms can possibly square with the faith being preached at the Sunday Novus Ordo service and by the local bishop and by the pope.  

There is no bitterness, but there is no real joy either.  There's no joy because the sedevacantist sees the harm being done to souls, both Catholics and non-Catholics alike as they praise the worldliness and apostasy of the man celebrated by the world.  But there is most definitely peace of mind and peace within the soul.