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Author Topic: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?  (Read 4270 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2019, 09:34:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 12, 2019, 09:24:36 AM
    And who decides that the criteria are met and is that decision also a dogmatic fact?

    Well, if there's dispute whether or not the criterion has been met, then the criterion has NOT been met.

    I believe that the principle cannot be Universal Acceptance alone, but must rather be:

    LEGITIMATE ELECTION + Universal Acceptance.

    So, in other words, if there's universal acceptance that the election being held is legitimate, then the results of that election make the man Pope.  If five minutes later, the Cardinals inside the conclave tried to depose the man and haul out another one, that man would not be pope.  Sound familiar?  One Cardinal Siri scenario immediately leaps to mind.

    Now, the counter argument is that the universal acceptance of a false pope compromises the infallibility of the Ecclesia Credens, but I would answer that the infallibility of the Ecclesia Credens is not compromised by material error.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
    « Reply #46 on: October 12, 2019, 09:35:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 12, 2019, 09:34:11 AM
    Could be the Pope Siri theory is true, right?

    Well, I've always thought that it was plausible, but couldn't explain it by way of the universal acceptance hypothesis, but your case studies demonstrate that it is in fact possible for a non-pope to be universally accepted.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
    « Reply #47 on: October 12, 2019, 09:38:41 AM »
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    • I've always detected a slight hint of "convalidation" theory in the Universal Acceptance reasoning.  I think that Bishop Sanborn came out nearly explicitly with this notion when he treated of it one time.

    If there's UNIVERSAL ACCEPTANCE of the election and the election happens in the manner pre-determined by the Pope, i.e. those usual pre-Conclave instructions laid out by the Pope, then the man is pope at the moment of his election (+acceptance of it) ... even if he's immediately deposed or jailed or whatever.  Those Cardinals could in fact engage in a conspiracy where they would hide the conclave results from the Universal Church, and the Church would not be any wiser to it.  Is that what happened with Siri?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
    « Reply #48 on: October 12, 2019, 09:43:03 AM »
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    • What would happen if the 1958 Conclave completely violated the terms prescribed by Pius XII and did not legitimately hold the election?  Then they trotted out the man that was produced by this uncanonical election and proposed him to the Church?  And the Church, being none the wiser to the true facts, just accepted this guy?  Can acceptance by the Church con-validate the election?  I don't feel like it should be able to.

    Maybe it's time for the Church to change the secrecy rules regarding conclaves, and force the entire thing to be conducted like a reality TV show where cameras and microphones are present ... but then of course the conspirators could go so far as to produce deepfake videos.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
    « Reply #49 on: October 12, 2019, 09:45:26 AM »
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    • I mean, naturally speaking, there's nothing to stop all manner of fakery from being perpetrated on the Church.

    Let's say the Masons and Communists and Jєωs have been infiltrating the hierarchy for centuries, to the point that 90% of them were covert agents.

    They decide before the election that they would install a designated candidate regardless of election rules.

    They trot this guy out as the pope, and the Church as a whole is none the wiser.

    This is very likely what happened in 1958.

    Of course, God could blow up the entire conspiracy anytime He chose to.  But this was God's chastisement, not to impede the conspiracy.  Recall Pope Leo XIII's vision where Our Lord granted leave for Satan to have more power over those who wish to serve him, and the subsequent prayer to St. Michael referring to the enemies of the Church replacing the Holy See with their own throne.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
    « Reply #50 on: October 12, 2019, 09:46:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 12, 2019, 09:33:05 AM
    That effectively nullifies the whole purpose of asserting universal peaceful acceptance.  The underlying premise is that if the hierarchy couldn't be assured of being attached to the true pope, they could become separated from him.  But history shows that this has in fact happened.  I can't remember which pope during the GWS (maybe Pope Martin V?) was almost universally not accepted as the true pope.  And yet he was the true pope!
    A lack of acceptance doesn't make you not the pope, but universal acceptance makes it heresy to not accept the pope. Like a Catholic who mistakenly followed an anti-pope in the GWS wasn't committing heresy or schism by that fact, but if they rejected a pope who enjoys universal acceptance they would.
    What exactly qualifies as universal acceptance is the big issue however.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
    « Reply #51 on: October 12, 2019, 09:50:11 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on October 12, 2019, 09:46:39 AM
    A lack of acceptance doesn't make you not the pope, but universal acceptance makes it heresy to not accept the pope. Like a Catholic who mistakenly followed an anti-pope in the GWS wasn't committing heresy or schism by that fact, but if they rejected a pope who enjoys universal acceptance they would.
    What exactly qualifies as universal acceptance is the big issue however.

    But this doesn't adequately address the case studies put forward by Clemens.  If I knew that the true Pope was in jail and refused to accept the guy who was at the time universally accepted, that would make me a heretic for rejecting him?

    I would have to say that legitimate election must be in the mix.  If I reject a man I know to have been legitimately elected with universal acceptance by the Church, then I'd be a heretic.  If I know or find out that the guy was not legitimately elected, then no amount of universal acceptance after the fact can change that.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
    « Reply #52 on: October 12, 2019, 09:55:18 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 12, 2019, 09:50:11 AM
    But this doesn't adequately address the case studies put forward by Clemens.  If I knew that the true Pope was in jail and refused to accept the guy who was at the time universally accepted, that would make me a heretic for rejecting him?

    I would have to say that legitimate election must be in the mix.  If I reject a man I know to have been legitimately elected with universal acceptance by the Church, then I'd be a heretic.  If I know or find out that the guy was not legitimately elected, then no amount of universal acceptance after the fact can change that.
    Right, and remember it is Pope SAINT Eugene I.  They were materially in error but they were of good will.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
    « Reply #53 on: October 12, 2019, 09:58:03 AM »
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    • Universal Acceptance is also a bit problematic before the last hundred years or so.  I would bet that during most of the Church's history, a good percentage of the Church had no idea who the Pope even was, and would have no actual way to confirm that the man was properly elected.  All they knew was that there was some guy sitting there in Rome claiming to be Pope, and they trusted God's providence that this was the guy.  90% of the Church would not have been the wiser had the emperor merely installed one of his cronies in the position.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
    « Reply #54 on: October 12, 2019, 10:01:01 AM »
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    • Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 12, 2019, 09:55:18 AM
    Right, and remember it is Pope SAINT Eugene I.  They were materially in error but they were of good will.

    And SAINT Martin appears to have acquiesced to the election of Eugene.  Is that similar to what happened with Siri?  But did this acquiescence mean anything?  I would say that he too was materially mistaken.  Now, if he had formally resigned, that would be one thing ... but even that one might consider invalid since it was done under duress.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
    « Reply #55 on: October 12, 2019, 10:10:34 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 12, 2019, 10:01:01 AM
    And SAINT Martin appears to have acquiesced to the election of Eugene.  Is that similar to what happened with Siri?  But did this acquiescence mean anything?  I would say that he too was materially mistaken.  Now, if he had formally resigned, that would be one thing ... but even that one might consider invalid since it was done under duress.
    Actually, thinking back on it, there were a number of cases in the early Church where a pope was exiled and another was elected before he died, with the new pope never being regarded(at the time or retroactively) as an anti-pope. There's also the other bizarre case where, until Pope John XXIII, the Pisan line of the GWS were not regarded as anti-popes. That's 2 lines of popes regarded as valid, until finally the Pope of the Robber Council unofficially declared the Pisan line invalid by ignoring Pisan John XXIII in his regnal numbering. However, Pope Alexander VI took VI instead of V, recognising Pisan Alexander V as pope. Despite the fact that Alexander V was elected in opposition to a Roman pope. So that also shows a lot for how the status of someone as pope can remain uncertain even for centuries after they're dead. From the Catholic Encyclopaedia:

    Quote
    Whether or not Alexander was a true pope is a question which canonists and historians of the Schism still discuss. The Church has not pronounced a definite opinion nor is it at all likely that she will. The Roman "Gerarchia Cattolica", not an authoritative work, which prior to 1906 contained a chronological list of the popes, designated Alexander V as the 211th pope, succeeding Gregory XII, resigned. (See PAPACY.) His remains are interred in the church of St. Francis at Bologna in a tomb magnificently restored in 1889 under the direction of Leo XIII.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
    « Reply #56 on: October 12, 2019, 10:21:47 AM »
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    • At the end of the day, it is only God's Providence that prevents the Church from being befuddled and even materially mistaken regarding the identity of the Pope.  There was the one pre-Vatican II theologian, writing about the so-called "Western" schism, who wrote that we have to be careful not to presume on what God would allow to befall the Church.  We know that He will provide a solution, but short of that, he took that crisis as a lesson.  He even said that there's nothing to prevent God from allowing a vacancy to go on for a very long time.  Before it happened, I'm sure that many Catholics would swear that something like that Schism could never happen.

    Even with the Siri scenario, God allowed details of the conspiracy to leak out.  And God made sure that the V2 orientations were so over-the-top that even simple Catholics with little education could simply apply their Catholic sensibilities to discern, "uhm, I don't recognize whatever this is as being consistent with my faith."  Had God allowed this to go on for centuries, with little subtle changes every decade or so, everyone could have been fooled.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
    « Reply #57 on: October 12, 2019, 10:31:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on October 12, 2019, 10:21:47 AM
    At the end of the day, it is only God's Providence that prevents the Church from being befuddled and even materially mistaken regarding the identity of the Pope.  There was the one pre-Vatican II theologian, writing about the so-called "Western" schism, who wrote that we have to be careful not to presume on what God would allow to befall the Church.  We know that He will provide a solution, but short of that, he took that crisis as a lesson.  He even said that there's nothing to prevent God from allowing a vacancy to go on for a very long time.  Before it happened, I'm sure that many Catholics would swear that something like that Schism could never happen.

    Even with the Siri scenario, God allowed details of the conspiracy to leak out.  And God made sure that the V2 orientations were so over-the-top that even simple Catholics with little education could simply apply their Catholic sensibilities to discern, "uhm, I don't recognize whatever this is as being consistent with my faith."  Had God allowed this to go on for centuries, with little subtle changes every decade or so, everyone could have been fooled.
    At least the Great Western Schism had no theological disagreements, no side taught heresy or promulgated false rites, etc. So it was easier for a Catholic to just ignore the whole pope issue and go to his local parish church as before. This crisis is more serious in that respect, one "side" has basically apostasised, and it's already having lasted longer with no end in sight. I think the current crisis could only be possible on the eve of the End Times or at least the Great Chastisement. People may have taught the same about a GWS-esque scenario before it actually happened, but I think there were more serious crises than the GWS before it, like the Arian Crisis, etc. I think this current crisis is the only one that tops the Arian Crisis in severity. 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
    « Reply #58 on: October 12, 2019, 10:36:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: forlorn on October 12, 2019, 10:31:08 AM
    At least the Great Western Schism had no theological disagreements, no side taught heresy or promulgated false rites, etc. So it was easier for a Catholic to just ignore the whole pope issue and go to his local parish church as before. This crisis is more serious in that respect, one "side" has basically apostasised, and it's already having lasted longer with no end in sight. I think the current crisis could only be possible on the eve of the End Times or at least the Great Chastisement. People may have taught the same about a GWS-esque scenario before it actually happened, but I think there were more serious crises than the GWS before it, like the Arian Crisis, etc. I think this current crisis is the only one that tops the Arian Crisis in severity.

    Agreed.  This is THE MOTHER of all crises.  With Arianism, at least the Arians had not taken control of the papacy.
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    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
    « Reply #59 on: October 13, 2019, 11:34:35 AM »
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    • Popes come and go but ...
    Jesus Christ is yesterday, today and forever!

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    May God bless you and keep you
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