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Author Topic: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?  (Read 31394 times)

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Offline forlorn

Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2019, 09:10:35 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on October 12, 2019, 09:05:09 AM
Here's how I answer the question posted by the OP.

I pretend that I'm living during the reign of Pope Pius XII, say, in 1950.  Is there a Catholic anywhere in the world who thinks that Pius XII is not Pope?  There's no dispute, no disagreement, no doubt, just peace of mind and calm regarding this identity.

Is this really what we have with Jorge Bergoglio ... when some even in the Novus Ordo are wondering if he's Catholic?
To play devil's advocate, the Old Catholics would assert there certainly was dispute and disagreement.
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2019, 09:10:59 AM »
Let's take the current case of one Jorge Bergoglio.

We have a small group of Novus Ordo Cardinals who called him out for heresy regarding communion for those living in sin.  What was it, about 6 of them?  Now, clearly these men are objectively correct, that Jorge's teaching is in fact heretical.

Where are the other hundreds of Cardinals and thousands of bishops.  Silent.  Why?  It's either because they themselves are heretics who agree with Bergoglio or they are too pusillanimous so speak up or they just don't care about things like doctrine.

Let's say that Bergoglio IS in fact a heretic, and these Cardinals are correct.  How do you get rid of him ever if 99% of the putative hierarchy are either in lock step with him or worthless cowards?
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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2019, 09:12:37 AM »
Quote from: forlorn on October 12, 2019, 09:10:35 AM
To play devil's advocate, the Old Catholics would assert there certainly was dispute and disagreement.

Well, that was a different era.  Which is why I used Pius XII.  Now, I'm not sure the Old Catholics ever questioned that he was the Pope.  They just didn't accept his teaching.  I'm not sure that's the same thing.

Now, let's say that the Old Catholics had gone all sedevacante, and argued that Pius IX was no longer pope due to being guilty of heresy on the infallibility question.  Their opinion would not matter, since they would have been heretics.  That's similar to how I feel about the vast majority of the Novus Ordo hierarchy who refuse to reject Bergoglio as a non-Catholic.  Why should their opinion be taken into any more account than that of, say, these hypothetical sedevacantist Old Catholics?
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2019, 09:14:13 AM »
Quote from: Clemens Maria on October 12, 2019, 09:08:29 AM
So you dogmatic facters have some explaining to do.  How can you in good conscience call traditionalists heretics for not believing that it is a dogmatic fact that Frank the Clown is the pope?  I'm a heretic for not believing that a manifest heretic is a pope?  That's rich!
I agree with this.
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Offline forlorn

Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2019, 09:19:53 AM »
Quote from: Ladislaus on October 12, 2019, 09:12:37 AM
Well, that was a different era.  Which is why I used Pius XII.  Now, I'm not sure the Old Catholics ever questioned that he was the Pope.  They just didn't accept his teaching.  I'm not sure that's the same thing.

Now, let's say that the Old Catholics had gone all sedevacante, and argued that Pius IX was no longer pope due to being guilty of heresy on the infallibility question.  Their opinion would not matter, since they would have been heretics.  That's similar to how I feel about the vast majority of the Novus Ordo hierarchy who refuse to reject Bergoglio as a non-Catholic.  Why should their opinion be taken into any more account than that of, say, these hypothetical sedevacantist Old Catholics?
Well I mean, they were still around during Pius XII's reign - and even today, for that matter(although their beliefs and practices have changed wildly since - they're a good example of "know a tree by its fruits", with their female priests and unity with Protestants).

But anyway, Old Catholics as they were in the wake of the First Vatican Council believed every dogma the Church taught UNTIL V1. So a sedevacantist Old Catholic back then would've been in the exact same boat as a modern sedevacantist who calls V2 a false council.
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