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Author Topic: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?  (Read 31374 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2019, 11:17:26 AM »
Quote from: ByzCat3000 on October 11, 2019, 09:41:53 AM
I did forget, but I understand that some posters here, like Stubborn, do not accept the universal peaceful acceptance criteria at all.  That’s fine and maybe they’re right.  But I was asking particularly because of a discussion between two people who did accept it, but interpreted it differently
It's not that I don't accept it, it's that the term "universal peaceful acceptance" is in itself unacceptable because it does not exist. If it does, then what is it?

At the same time, why doesn't the pope's words saying that the man elected "is instantly the true pope" do what they are intended to do, namely, settle the matter?
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Offline ByzCat3000

Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2019, 12:30:08 PM »
Quote from: Stubborn on October 11, 2019, 11:17:26 AM
It's not that I don't accept it, it's that the term "universal peaceful acceptance" is in itself unacceptable because it does not exist. If it does, then what is it?

At the same time, why doesn't the pope's words saying that the man elected "is instantly the true pope" do what they are intended to do, namely, settle the matter?
The first bit is exactly what I’m trying
To figure out.  Like even if we exclude the Professing Catholics who knowingly deny dogmas, we are still looking at 50 million or so novus ordo Catholics who at least never doubted the pre Francis conciliar popes, vs maybe a couple million trads, tops, some of which have probably never doubted them but most of whom probably have.  Is that really not universal acceptance?  Idk.

The second part is easy.  How is that order from Pius XII infallible?  Also it doesn’t answer certain ridiculous possibilities.  What if the conclave literally elected Osama bin laden instead of Benedict XVI?  Would he really be eligible to take the office because of Pius X words? 
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Offline SimpleMan

Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2019, 12:42:40 PM »
Indeed, the dogmatic fact of papal legitimacy must be known a priori from some external criterion.  Theologians all agree that this criterion is the universal peaceful acceptance of the Church.

Never heard this before.  I thought that the criterion was that the College of Cardinals (or whatever other mechanism the Church might use to select a pope) elects a male Catholic, he accepts, and he becomes pope.  No assent of the faithful required.  Nice, but not necessary.
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Offline Stubborn

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Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2019, 12:56:53 PM »
Quote from: ByzCat3000 on October 11, 2019, 12:30:08 PM
The first bit is exactly what I’m trying
To figure out.  Like even if we exclude the Professing Catholics who knowingly deny dogmas, we are still looking at 50 million or so novus ordo Catholics who at least never doubted the pre Francis conciliar popes, vs maybe a couple million trads, tops, some of which have probably never doubted them but most of whom probably have.  Is that really not universal acceptance?  Idk.

The second part is easy.  How is that order from Pius XII infallible?  Also it doesn’t answer certain ridiculous possibilities.  What if the conclave literally elected Osama bin laden instead of Benedict XVI?  Would he really be eligible to take the office because of Pius X words?
The first bit is a theological opinion which in all likelihood, is termed incorrectly on this forum, the only thing that is certain about it, is that it is not a teaching of the Church.

We presume the election is valid and carried out in accordance per the legislation mandated by the pope unless proven otherwise. Full stop. As such, the man elected is the true pope.
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Offline SeanJohnson

Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2019, 01:13:44 PM »
The part I don’t get is why there is any confusion about universal acceptance.

The theologians who used the term explained what it was (moral unanimity among the bishops), yet some still declare their mystification?

I’m also confused by Stubborn’s position that a papacy is a dogmatic fact, but contrary to the unanimous opinion of approved theologians who opine that it is this consent which imparts to the papacy the quality of being a dogmatic fact, he says they are wrong.  I doubt he can cite a theologian saying otherwise (since they are unanimous against him), but he offers no other explanation in its place, such that to be at least consistent, he should be arguing that either there is something about the conciliar papacies which is fundamentally different from all other papacies which robs them of the quality of being dogmatic facts, or that no papacies are dogmatic facts (a position he seems to comes close to several times when he notes the term has only been around 150 years).
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