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Author Topic: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?  (Read 31409 times)

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Online Ladislaus

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Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2019, 09:22:08 AM »
Well, those are interesting case studies, Clemens.

Now, I am in fact a dogmatic facter, in the sense that it's logically (theologically) certain that the legitimacy of a pope must be dogmatically certain, or else nothing they define as dogma can be dogmatically certain.

What's at issue is what criterion determines whether the legitimacy of any given pope is dogmatic fact.  It has always been held to be universal peaceful acceptance, but I will read up on and consider the case studies you posted.

But even while upholding universal peaceful acceptance, I do not consider rejecting Bergoglio to be heresy, since he decidedly lacks such universal peaceful acceptance by Catholics.

Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2019, 09:24:36 AM »
Well, those are interesting case studies, Clemens.

Now, I am in fact a dogmatic facter, in the sense that it's logically (theologically) certain that the legitimacy of a pope must be dogmatically certain, or else nothing they define as dogma can be dogmatically certain.

What's at issue is what criterion determines whether the legitimacy of any given pope is dogmatic fact.  It has always been held to be universal peaceful acceptance, but I will read up on and consider the case studies you posted.

But even while upholding universal peaceful acceptance, I do not consider rejecting Bergoglio to be heresy, since he decidedly lacks such universal peaceful acceptance by Catholics.
And who decides that the criteria are met and is that decision also a dogmatic fact?


Online Ladislaus

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Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2019, 09:29:19 AM »
Perhaps the answer is that John of St. Thomas did not correctly think through the quoad se vs. quoad nos distinction.

If a Pope were elected and universally accepted, then he's Pope by dogmatic fact.  When a subsequent man comes along, deposes him, puts him in jail, assumes the See with new "universal acceptance", the universal acceptance means nothing, for the quoad nos cannot override the quoad se.  No subsequent universal acceptance of another man can cause the deposition of the original pope, for that would be a flavor of Conciliarism, where the Church can effectively depose popes.

Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2019, 09:33:05 AM »
Perhaps the answer is that John of St. Thomas did not correctly think through the quoad se vs. quoad nos distinction.

If a Pope were elected and universally accepted, then he's Pope by dogmatic fact.  When a subsequent man comes along, deposes him, puts him in jail, assumes the See with new "universal acceptance", the universal acceptance means nothing, for the quoad nos cannot override the quoad se.  No subsequent universal acceptance of another man can cause the deposition of the original pope, for that would be a flavor of Conciliarism, where the Church can effectively depose popes.
That effectively nullifies the whole purpose of asserting universal peaceful acceptance.  The underlying premise is that if the hierarchy couldn't be assured of being attached to the true pope, they could become separated from him.  But history shows that this has in fact happened.  I can't remember which pope during the GWS (maybe Pope Martin V?) was almost universally not accepted as the true pope.  And yet he was the true pope!

Re: What is Universal Peaceful Acceptance?
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2019, 09:34:11 AM »
Could be the Pope Siri theory is true, right?