Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?  (Read 4430 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
  • *****
  • Posts: 41912
  • Reputation: +23950/-4345
  • Gender: Male
Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2018, 02:57:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • So per cuм ex, +Thuc, having been detected of deviating from the faith, lost his supposed appointment read: elevation of universal jurisdiction, a jurisdiction normally reserved only to the bishop of Rome.  

    Except if you're sedeprivationist.  In that case, Thuc merely ceased to formally exercise his office during the time that he had defected; when he reverted to the faith, he took up formal office once again since it had never been materially taken from him.


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #31 on: July 25, 2018, 06:13:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!2
  • .
    This makes literally no sense at all.
    .
    cuм Ex is simply codifying into the Church's positive law what all the Fathers and Doctors taught: if you're a heretic, you can't hold office in the Church, full stop.  It doesn't matter if you're validly consecrated, it doesn't matter if your appointment is accepted, it doesn't matter even if you're elected pope and all the cardinals think you are pope.  If you're a heretic you can't have an office, full stop.
    Talk about making no sense at all. "...it doesn't matter even if you're elected pope and all the cardinals think you *are* pope." Then what, you're really not the pope? This is supposed to make sense?

    Since +Thuc lost his office due to his heresy, and certainly we all agree that by virtue of his participation in the Novus Ordo heresy, per cuм ex he indeed deviated from the faith hence lost his office, how does a bishop who loses "all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power" due to heresy get any jurisdiction at all, or even having lost the power to consecrate, where does the bishop who is no longer bishop who lost "all power", get the power to consecrate?

    Further, what is to be said of all those that +Thuc  consecrated as bishops who are also guilty of heresy due to their participation in the NO prior to their consecrations? And then also, those +Thuc line bishops who in turn consecrated still more bishops? What about the priests they've ordained? By your reasoning, are none of them bishops or priests but only think they *are*? cuм ex does not restore any offices or rescind any of it's censures, rather, it permits the pope to sentence the repenters "to sequestration in any Monastery or other religious house in order to perform perpetual penance upon the bread of sorrow and the water of affliction."

    I know sedes don't answer questions and this reply has a few, so this is just food for your thought.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41912
    • Reputation: +23950/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #32 on: July 25, 2018, 08:00:13 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!4
  • Since +Thuc lost his office due to his heresy, and certainly we all agree that by virtue of his participation in the Novus Ordo heresy, per cuм ex he indeed deviated from the faith hence lost his office, how does a bishop who loses "all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power" due to heresy get any jurisdiction at all, or even having lost the power to consecrate, where does the bishop who is no longer bishop who lost "all power", get the power to consecrate?

    As per always, you post from a place of ignorance and bad will.  You have never been interested in sincerely looking for the truth but are always grinding your childish little anti-sede ax.  Unfortunately for you, this ax has an incredibly dull blade.

    You've never been one to understand the concept of a distinction.  You repeatedly fail to distinguish between the power of orders and the power of jurisdiction.  Even if you could be certain that Thuc lost office due to heresy (and this is by no means certain ... I don't think he did), it is heresy condemned by the Church to say that they cannot VALIDLY consecrate bishops.  He retrains the power of orders.  Even IF he had been a heretic at the time, the consecrations would still have been valid.  If he did not have the proper authority to perform the consecrations, then they would be illicit.  In that sense, no Traditional Catholic bishop has ever had the "power to consecrate" (to use your crudely generalized expression).

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #33 on: July 25, 2018, 08:50:57 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!4
  • As per always, you post from a place of ignorance and bad will.  You have never been interested in sincerely looking for the truth but are always grinding your childish little anti-sede ax.  Unfortunately for you, this ax has an incredibly dull blade.

    You've never been one to understand the concept of a distinction.  You repeatedly fail to distinguish between the power of orders and the power of jurisdiction.  Even if you could be certain that Thuc lost office due to heresy (and this is by no means certain ... I don't think he did), it is heresy condemned by the Church to say that they cannot VALIDLY consecrate bishops.  He retrains the power of orders.  Even IF he had been a heretic at the time, the consecrations would still have been valid.  If he did not have the proper authority to perform the consecrations, then they would be illicit.  In that sense, no Traditional Catholic bishop has ever had the "power to consecrate" (to use your crudely generalized expression).
    As per always, you post from the mindset of no reading comprehension. Try actually reading cuм ex some time, then argue that Pope Paul IV is of ignorance and bad will.

    cuм ex specifically states, as I quoted, those who were ever detected of deviating from the faith lose all power. Not all power except for consecrations, not all power except for ordinations, he does not say they lose "all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power - but they keep their power of consecrating in order to consecrate more heretics."

    Read what it says without adding your own exceptions for a change.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41912
    • Reputation: +23950/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #34 on: July 25, 2018, 12:00:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!3
  • As per always, you post from the mindset of no reading comprehension. Try actually reading cuм ex some time, then argue that Pope Paul IV is of ignorance and bad will.

    cuм ex specifically states, as I quoted, those who were ever detected of deviating from the faith lose all power. Not all power except for consecrations, not all power except for ordinations, he does not say they lose "all dignity, position, honour, title, authority, office and power - but they keep their power of consecrating in order to consecrate more heretics."

    Read what it says without adding your own exceptions for a change.

    Idiot, you need to actually understand things in a Catholic context.  Like a buffoon, you read words, look them up in Webster's English dictionary, and then pontificate about theological matters of which you know absolutely nothing.  It's heretical to state that a Bishop without jurisdiction cannot validly confer orders.  In fact, if that's the case, the SSPX bishops are also invalid.  At various times in Church history, the Church has received back into the fold schismatic/heretical bishops who had in turn been consecrated by the same ... without requiring even so much as a conditional ordination/consecration.


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #35 on: July 25, 2018, 02:28:52 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!4
  • Idiot, you need to actually understand things in a Catholic context.  Like a buffoon, you read words, look them up in Webster's English dictionary, and then pontificate about theological matters of which you know absolutely nothing.  It's heretical to state that a Bishop without jurisdiction cannot validly confer orders.  In fact, if that's the case, the SSPX bishops are also invalid.  At various times in Church history, the Church has received back into the fold schismatic/heretical bishops who had in turn been consecrated by the same ... without requiring even so much as a conditional ordination/consecration.
    All you are actually doing but apparently don't even realize it, is admitting that cuм ex is no longer in force, and I agree. It should be well known among the sedes that Pope St. Pius X abrogated it, but they insist it is still the law. My point is, as I said, "if you believe cuм ex is still in force...." then +Thuc, per cuм ex, had no power to confer orders and per the direction given in cuм ex, as a repented heretic, he was to be sentenced "to sequestration in any Monastery or other religious house in order to perform perpetual penance upon the bread of sorrow and the water of affliction." That is what cuм ex says.


     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41912
    • Reputation: +23950/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #36 on: July 25, 2018, 02:31:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Read cuм ex, as it is written professor. You keep adding things to cuм ex that are not in it and contradict it - try hard as you can to avoid doing that from now on - I have confidence in you lad, you can do it!

    So now you're adding to your ever-growing list of heresies the contention that orders conferred by heretics and schismatics are not valid.

    You keep throwing out that expression "as it is written" while putting forth your own interpretation of what is written as being the same as what's written.  You are not the least bit different from any Protestant who takes Scripture out of context, misinterprets it, and then claims that his interpretation is the Word of God.  Between this and your Protestant view of the Magisterium, you are in fact a Protestant and not a Catholic.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41912
    • Reputation: +23950/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #37 on: July 25, 2018, 02:33:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • All you are actually doing but apparently don't even realize it, is admitting that cuм ex is no longer in force, and I agree.

    No, what I'm saying is that cuм ex is not saying that heretic bishops lose the power to validly consecrate bishops or ordain priests.

    Church law CANNOT strip Sacramental powers from those who hold them.  So, no Church law could mandate that a Mass offered by a laicized priest is not valid ... but only illicit and sinful.  If such a priest were to offer Mass even in the face of such "legislation" (which the Church has never attempted since she knows it has no force), it would still be valid given the essential requirements for validity.


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #38 on: July 26, 2018, 05:31:26 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • So now you're adding to your ever-growing list of heresies the contention that orders conferred by heretics and schismatics are not valid.

    You keep throwing out that expression "as it is written" while putting forth your own interpretation of what is written as being the same as what's written.  You are not the least bit different from any Protestant who takes Scripture out of context, misinterprets it, and then claims that his interpretation is the Word of God.  Between this and your Protestant view of the Magisterium, you are in fact a Protestant and not a Catholic.
    You really should try to lose your NO confusion. Like so many other sedes, you keep accusing me of doing exactly what you yourself are doing. Just remember I'm not the one interpreting anything, I'm the one reading it as it is written. Have you ever even read cuм ex?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #39 on: July 26, 2018, 05:32:48 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • No, what I'm saying is that cuм ex is not saying that heretic bishops lose the power to validly consecrate bishops or ordain priests.

    Church law CANNOT strip Sacramental powers from those who hold them.  So, no Church law could mandate that a Mass offered by a laicized priest is not valid ... but only illicit and sinful.  If such a priest were to offer Mass even in the face of such "legislation" (which the Church has never attempted since she knows it has no force), it would still be valid given the essential requirements for validity.
    Yes, that is what you're admitting, you really should read cuм ex next chance you get.

    I already said I agree with you, but you are disagreeing with cuм ex.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 41912
    • Reputation: +23950/-4345
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #40 on: July 26, 2018, 08:36:23 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I already said I agree with you, but you are disagreeing with cuм ex.

    Problem is that you don't understand cuм ex or Catholic theology in general.


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #41 on: July 26, 2018, 09:22:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Problem is that you don't understand cuм ex or Catholic theology in general.
    I understand cuм ex since it's not a parable, nor is there is anything so deep in it that it needs "expert" interpretation. It is obvious to me that one of your problems is the formal NO theological education you've had made your thinking theologically backwards, you learned to believe that all pre-V2 papal docuмents have the same built-in ambiguity that every NO papal docuмent has. Try to get yourself to read cuм ex one of these days, but you must read what it actually says, read it without interpreting it to saying opposite of what it actually says.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10313
    • Reputation: +6220/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #42 on: July 26, 2018, 02:48:30 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    cuм Ex is simply codifying into the Church's positive law what all the Fathers and Doctors taught: if you're a heretic, you can't hold office in the Church, full stop. It doesn't matter if you're validly consecrated, it doesn't matter if your appointment is accepted, it doesn't matter even if you're elected pope and all the cardinals think you are pope.  If you're a heretic you can't have an office, full stop.
    cuм Ex is from the 1500s.  Modernism being an 1800s (til now) attack on the Church, it seems apparent that St Pius X and Pius XII's changes to the rules for papal elections were meant to avoid a situation where most of the clergy was affected with modernistic heresy, therefore the papacy would end,because no one would be eligible to be elected.  (The end of the papacy, of course, is one of freemasonic's goals, which St Pius X was WELL AWARE OF).  So Pius XII re-affirmed St Pius X's conclave election rules, which suspend excommunication (and all other) penalties, so that the papacy could continue, even if it was held by heretic.  This is clearly the intention of the Holy Fathers - to suspend cuм Ex for a very specific reason, after which election, the penalties return.

    It is certainly a support to the idea of sedeprivationism, or a spiritually "empty" office of the pope.  Yet, I think we still would need a Church decision that "pope A was excommunicated/a heretic" before we could say that the spiritual office was vacant.  So it would be a case of "future proves the past", where a pope was declared an anti-pope by a future papal administration.

    34. No Cardinal, by pretext or reason of any excommunication, suspension, in-terdict or other ecclesiastical impediment whatsoever can be excluded in any way from the active and passive election of the Supreme Pontiff. Moreover, we suspend such censures for the effect only of this election, even though they shall remain otherwise in force.” (Cons. “Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis,” 8 December 1945)

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #43 on: July 26, 2018, 03:12:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • cuм Ex is from the 1500s.  Modernism being an 1800s (til now) attack on the Church, it seems apparent that St Pius X and Pius XII's changes to the rules for papal elections were meant to avoid a situation where most of the clergy was affected with modernistic heresy, therefore the papacy would end,because no one would be eligible to be elected.  (The end of the papacy, of course, is one of freemasonic's goals, which St Pius X was WELL AWARE OF).  So Pius XII re-affirmed St Pius X's conclave election rules, which suspend excommunication (and all other) penalties, so that the papacy could continue, even if it was held by heretic.  This is clearly the intention of the Holy Fathers - to suspend cuм Ex for a very specific reason, after which election, the penalties return.
    Well said Pax.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse