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Author Topic: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?  (Read 10472 times)

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Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2018, 09:52:42 PM »
Can you provide more details on that?
Sure.  Reproduced from the French periodical Sous La Banniere, a "Motu Proprio" of Pope Pius XI delegated extraordinary powers to then Titular Bishop of Saigon, Ngo-Dinh-Thuc.  It reads as follows -

Pius XI, Pope:
Quote
By the fullness of the power of the Holy Apostolic See, We appoint as our Legate Peter Martin Ngo-Dinh-Thuc, titular of Saigon, for boundaries known to Us, with all the necessary faculties.

Given at Rome from St. Peter's, the 15th day of March, 1938, in the seventeenth year of our Pontificate.

(signed) Pius XI, Pope

The significance or extent of these powers, identical with those conferred by the same Pope on the predecessor of Bishop Thuc 12 years earlier, Bishop d'Herbigny, S.J., were made explicit by the Pope himself, as quoted by Father Paul Lesourd in his book Le Jesuite Clandestin:

 "Orally, the Holy Father detailed first of all, all the powers which he was giving, including the choice of priests to consecrate and to confer on them the episcopacy without their having need of pontifical bulls, nor therefore to give their signatures engaging themselves to conform to such under oath.

 "Then, after having detailed at length verbally all the truly extraordinary powers, the Pope thus summed himself up very solemnly:

"In a word We grant you all the pontifical powers of the Pope himself, which are not by Divine Law incommunicable."

I have photocopies of both Moto Proprio(s) mentioned above.

Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2018, 05:34:49 PM »
Sure.  Reproduced from the French periodical Sous La Banniere, a "Motu Proprio" of Pope Pius XI delegated extraordinary powers to then Titular Bishop of Saigon, Ngo-Dinh-Thuc.  It reads as follows -

Pius XI, Pope:
The significance or extent of these powers, identical with those conferred by the same Pope on the predecessor of Bishop Thuc 12 years earlier, Bishop d'Herbigny, S.J., were made explicit by the Pope himself, as quoted by Father Paul Lesourd in his book Le Jesuite Clandestin:

 "Orally, the Holy Father detailed first of all, all the powers which he was giving, including the choice of priests to consecrate and to confer on them the episcopacy without their having need of pontifical bulls, nor therefore to give their signatures engaging themselves to conform to such under oath.

 "Then, after having detailed at length verbally all the truly extraordinary powers, the Pope thus summed himself up very solemnly:

"In a word We grant you all the pontifical powers of the Pope himself, which are not by Divine Law incommunicable."

I have photocopies of both Moto Proprio(s) mentioned above.
Well now. This sheds a new light on those who question the Thuc consecrations.  It also opens up the possibility that the Thuc bishops and subsequent line have more than just supplied jurisdiction, doesn't it?


Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
« Reply #17 on: July 23, 2018, 07:24:30 PM »
Well now. This sheds a new light on those who question the Thuc consecrations.  It also opens up the possibility that the Thuc bishops and subsequent line have more than just supplied jurisdiction, doesn't it?
It is interesting to note that these special pontifical facilities to ordain priests and consecrate bishops without explicit authorization from Rome were renewed by Pope Pius XII on December 8th, 1939.

Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2018, 07:41:11 PM »
It is interesting to note that these special pontifical facilities to ordain priests and consecrate bishops without explicit authorization from Rome were renewed by Pope Pius XII on December 8th, 1939.
Yes, it is.  Thanks for posting this information.  I don't recall ever seeing it.

Offline Stubborn

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Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2018, 05:56:44 AM »
Well now. This sheds a new light on those who question the Thuc consecrations.  It also opens up the possibility that the Thuc bishops and subsequent line have more than just supplied jurisdiction, doesn't it?
For those who believe that cuм ex is still in force, then +Thuc, being suspect of deviating from the faith after 1938 (he was Novus Ordo off and on), lost his office before consecrating bishops. This makes all +Thuc consecration of bishops invalid, does it not?