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Author Topic: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?  (Read 4417 times)

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Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2018, 09:52:42 PM »
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  • Can you provide more details on that?
    Sure.  Reproduced from the French periodical Sous La Banniere, a "Motu Proprio" of Pope Pius XI delegated extraordinary powers to then Titular Bishop of Saigon, Ngo-Dinh-Thuc.  It reads as follows -

    Pius XI, Pope:
    Quote
    By the fullness of the power of the Holy Apostolic See, We appoint as our Legate Peter Martin Ngo-Dinh-Thuc, titular of Saigon, for boundaries known to Us, with all the necessary faculties.

    Given at Rome from St. Peter's, the 15th day of March, 1938, in the seventeenth year of our Pontificate.

    (signed) Pius XI, Pope

    The significance or extent of these powers, identical with those conferred by the same Pope on the predecessor of Bishop Thuc 12 years earlier, Bishop d'Herbigny, S.J., were made explicit by the Pope himself, as quoted by Father Paul Lesourd in his book Le Jesuite Clandestin:

     "Orally, the Holy Father detailed first of all, all the powers which he was giving, including the choice of priests to consecrate and to confer on them the episcopacy without their having need of pontifical bulls, nor therefore to give their signatures engaging themselves to conform to such under oath.

     "Then, after having detailed at length verbally all the truly extraordinary powers, the Pope thus summed himself up very solemnly:

    "In a word We grant you all the pontifical powers of the Pope himself, which are not by Divine Law incommunicable."

    I have photocopies of both Moto Proprio(s) mentioned above.
    Omnes pro Christo


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #16 on: July 23, 2018, 05:34:49 PM »
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  • Sure.  Reproduced from the French periodical Sous La Banniere, a "Motu Proprio" of Pope Pius XI delegated extraordinary powers to then Titular Bishop of Saigon, Ngo-Dinh-Thuc.  It reads as follows -

    Pius XI, Pope:
    The significance or extent of these powers, identical with those conferred by the same Pope on the predecessor of Bishop Thuc 12 years earlier, Bishop d'Herbigny, S.J., were made explicit by the Pope himself, as quoted by Father Paul Lesourd in his book Le Jesuite Clandestin:

     "Orally, the Holy Father detailed first of all, all the powers which he was giving, including the choice of priests to consecrate and to confer on them the episcopacy without their having need of pontifical bulls, nor therefore to give their signatures engaging themselves to conform to such under oath.

     "Then, after having detailed at length verbally all the truly extraordinary powers, the Pope thus summed himself up very solemnly:

    "In a word We grant you all the pontifical powers of the Pope himself, which are not by Divine Law incommunicable."

    I have photocopies of both Moto Proprio(s) mentioned above.
    Well now. This sheds a new light on those who question the Thuc consecrations.  It also opens up the possibility that the Thuc bishops and subsequent line have more than just supplied jurisdiction, doesn't it?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #17 on: July 23, 2018, 07:24:30 PM »
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  • Well now. This sheds a new light on those who question the Thuc consecrations.  It also opens up the possibility that the Thuc bishops and subsequent line have more than just supplied jurisdiction, doesn't it?
    It is interesting to note that these special pontifical facilities to ordain priests and consecrate bishops without explicit authorization from Rome were renewed by Pope Pius XII on December 8th, 1939.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #18 on: July 23, 2018, 07:41:11 PM »
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  • It is interesting to note that these special pontifical facilities to ordain priests and consecrate bishops without explicit authorization from Rome were renewed by Pope Pius XII on December 8th, 1939.
    Yes, it is.  Thanks for posting this information.  I don't recall ever seeing it.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #19 on: July 24, 2018, 05:56:44 AM »
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  • Well now. This sheds a new light on those who question the Thuc consecrations.  It also opens up the possibility that the Thuc bishops and subsequent line have more than just supplied jurisdiction, doesn't it?
    For those who believe that cuм ex is still in force, then +Thuc, being suspect of deviating from the faith after 1938 (he was Novus Ordo off and on), lost his office before consecrating bishops. This makes all +Thuc consecration of bishops invalid, does it not?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #20 on: July 24, 2018, 09:24:24 AM »
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  • So, it seems supplied jurisdiction is not needed because the power to consecrate is one of the powers of Orders.

    .
    The guiding principle is, "We distinguish but we do not separate." The words, "distinctly separate," do not follow this principle.
    For example, this quote from Miaskiewicz implies you can have jurisdictional power without Orders as well as Orders without jurisdictional power. This introduces confusion instead of clarity!
    .
    Therefore, it would seem this quote from Miaskiewicz contains a mistake. Where it has "distinctly separate" it ought to have "distinguished." If those words are replaced, it would say:
    .
    It's not a mistake, to be sure.
    .
    Teleologically, orders and jurisdiction are meant to converge.  Ontologically, they do not.  A man may indeed have orders without any jurisdiction, and a man may indeed have jurisdiction without orders.  To the latter idea (having jurisdiction without orders, which is probably the "weirder" sounding idea), one might think of Pope Pius II, who when elected pope was not even a priest, and was never a priest (he died within a month, before he could secure orders).  Or of St. Ambrose, who likewise had no orders at all when he was elected bishop.  Such men received jurisdiction from the office completely even before they received holy orders.
    .
    Besides that, if the two could not be separated, then large swaths of canon law which deal with how men with orders get jurisdiction would be entirely superfluous.  The idea of jurisdiction being supplied at all is a non-sequitur if orders can't be separated from it.  As a matter of course, men who receive orders don't have jurisdiction until someone gives it to them.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #21 on: July 24, 2018, 10:03:40 AM »
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  • ETA I don't think it was Pope Pius II-- it was one of the Piccolomini popes, who was elected as a deacon. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #22 on: July 24, 2018, 10:56:03 AM »
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  • For those who believe that cuм ex is still in force, then +Thuc, being suspect of deviating from the faith after 1938 (he was Novus Ordo off and on), lost his office before consecrating bishops. This makes all +Thuc consecration of bishops invalid, does it not?

    Uhm, no.  You do realize that even non-Catholic bishops can validly consecrate, right?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #23 on: July 24, 2018, 11:37:06 AM »
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  • Uhm, no.  You do realize that even non-Catholic bishops can validly consecrate, right?
    Not according to cuм ex. It's quite explicit as regards any who were ever suspect of heresy.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline aryzia

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    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #24 on: July 24, 2018, 01:01:23 PM »
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  • Uhm, no.  You do realize that even non-Catholic bishops can validly consecrate, right?
    This was my understanding, but only if they had valid orders in the first place. Right?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #25 on: July 24, 2018, 01:58:02 PM »
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  • This was my understanding, but only if they had valid orders in the first place. Right?
    That's the way pretty much everyone understands it, but cuм ex condemns with loss of office and banishment of all bishops (and cardinals, popes, kings etc.) who ever deviated from the faith; "...it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration....."
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #26 on: July 24, 2018, 02:15:56 PM »
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  • That's the way pretty much everyone understands it, but cuм ex condemns with loss of office and banishment of all bishops (and cardinals, popes, kings etc.) who ever deviated from the faith; "...it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity (nor for it to be said that it has thus acquired validity) through the acceptance of the office, of consecration....."
    .
    To acquire validity for the appointment.  He's saying that the appointment of heretics is not valid even if they're validly consecrated
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #27 on: July 24, 2018, 02:36:03 PM »
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  • .
    To acquire validity for the appointment.  He's saying that the appointment of heretics is not valid even if they're validly consecrated
     JAM posted: "Orally, the Holy Father detailed first of all, all the powers which he was giving, including the choice of priests to consecrate and to confer on them the episcopacy without their having need of pontifical bulls, nor therefore to give their signatures engaging themselves to conform to such under oath..... In a word We grant you all the pontifical powers of the Pope himself, which are not by Divine Law incommunicable."

    cuм ex says that for those who have ever deviated from the faith, "the promotion or elevation, even if it shall have been uncontested and by the unanimous assent of all the Cardinals, shall be null, void and worthless; it shall not be possible for it to acquire validity...."

    So per cuм ex, +Thuc, having been detected of deviating from the faith, lost his supposed appointment read: elevation of universal jurisdiction, a jurisdiction normally reserved only to the bishop of Rome.  

    So I was wrong in what cuм ex said - it says nothing about invalid consecrations.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Mithrandylan

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    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #28 on: July 24, 2018, 02:55:56 PM »
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  • Quote
    So per cuм ex, +Thuc, having been detected of deviating from the faith, lost his supposed appointment read: elevation of universal jurisdiction, a jurisdiction normally reserved only to the bishop of Rome.

    .
    This makes literally no sense at all.
    .
    cuм Ex is simply codifying into the Church's positive law what all the Fathers and Doctors taught: if you're a heretic, you can't hold office in the Church, full stop.  It doesn't matter if you're validly consecrated, it doesn't matter if your appointment is accepted, it doesn't matter even if you're elected pope and all the cardinals think you are pope.  If you're a heretic you can't have an office, full stop.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What is the source of sedevacantist bishops' jurisdiction?
    « Reply #29 on: July 24, 2018, 02:55:59 PM »
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  • This was my understanding, but only if they had valid orders in the first place. Right?

    But of course.