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Author Topic: What good is Sedevacantism?  (Read 11804 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
« Reply #165 on: April 06, 2017, 05:19:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: BumphreyHogart on April 06, 2017, 04:10:54 AM
    STUBBORN, you just confirm what I said, that the real, first, question is whether it is true, NOT whether it is good. Talking about whether it is good before talking about whether it is true is a reversal of logical order.

    Ironic that you, the king of contradiction, would talk about contradictions as if you know what they are! Without the sedevacantist position a person just falls repeatedly into loads of contradictions, and denial of crucial doctrines about the papacy, infallibility and holiness of the Church of Christ.
    The truth must be believed and adhered too in it's entirety, if not, then contradiction to the truth is accepted as the truth, this is the case with sedevacantism.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #166 on: April 06, 2017, 11:14:19 AM »
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    I don't believe you. That's just hogwash. If Archbishop Lefebvre was coming close to being a sedecavantist in 1986, then why did he write this, in 1986, in his book "Open letter to Confused Catholics":

    "I have not ceased repeating that if anyone separates himself from the Pope, it will not be I."

    Do you understand what the above quote, written and published by Archbishop Lefebvre, means?

    Meg, yes, he said it in a speech he gave to seminarians, and it was printed in the Angelus.

    It is not opposed to your quote. To realize the sedevantist position is NOT separating from a pope, but knowing that the man is no longer a pope, having separated himself from the Church.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #167 on: April 06, 2017, 12:31:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: BumphreyHogart on April 06, 2017, 11:14:19 AM
    Meg, yes, he said it in a speech he gave to seminarians, and it was printed in the Angelus.

    It is not opposed to your quote. To realize the sedevantist position is NOT separating from a pope, but knowing that the man is no longer a pope, having separated himself from the Church.
    The sedevacantist position is an opinion that many sedevacantists believe to be a doctrine which is based on false premises which demand that the sedevacantists separates themselves from the pope under the excuse that they know that the man is not the pope - as if that is something they actually could know.


    What good is sedevacantism?
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline songbird

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #168 on: April 06, 2017, 07:22:38 PM »
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    • We know the pope is a heretic, by saying the adulterated mess. The Sin against the Holy Ghost!!  Anyone who follows it, give it a pen, back it up and etc.  are aligning themselves in  heresy as well.  You answer to your God, whose only Son, died to open heaven and His Most Precious Blood is the Power.  Man will come to know what the world is like w/o the Precious Blood!  Chapter 24 of Matt and Chapter 12 of Daniel. Read "Temporal Powers of the Vicar of Christ" by Cardinal Manning www.archive.org/stream/
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    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #169 on: April 07, 2017, 12:14:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on April 06, 2017, 07:22:38 PM
    We know the pope is a heretic, by saying the adulterated mess. The Sin against the Holy Ghost!!  Anyone who follows it, give it a pen, back it up and etc.  are aligning themselves in  heresy as well.  You answer to your God, whose only Son, died to open heaven and His Most Precious Blood is the Power.  Man will come to know what the world is like w/o the Precious Blood!  Chapter 24 of Matt and Chapter 12 of Daniel. Read "Temporal Powers of the Vicar of Christ" by Cardinal Manning www.archive.org/stream/
    The Pope APPEARS to be a heretic, but unless he acknowledges the nature of his heresy he doesn't actually lose his office. For that to happen you need not only publicnotorious heresy, but public notorious heresy by one who acknowledges it as such.
    Rather, we should say we know the person called Pope has no authority because he has used his authority contrary to the infallibility and indefectability of the Church, by promoting Vatican II and such. For this reason we know that he never actually willed the common good at the time of his election and was incapable of receiving the authority of the Papacy.
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    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #170 on: April 07, 2017, 12:27:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Truecharity on April 07, 2017, 12:20:33 AM
    You're joking.
    Not at all,how else would Canon law distinguish between a person preaching in public who says words that sound heretical but had no heretical intention?
    Notorious Imputability.
    Listen to Bishop Donald Sanborn-
    Objections against the Second Part of the Thesis
    VI. Canon 188 para 4 says that he who publicly should defect from the Faith tacitly renounces his office. But the conciliar “popes” have publicly defected from the Catholic Faith. Therefore they have renounced their office tacitly. Therefore they are not popes either formally or materially.
    Resp. 1 distinguish the major: Canon 188 para 4 says that he who should publicly defect from the Catholic Faith tacitly renounces his office, if his imputability is public, I concede; however if it is occult, I deny. The reason is that defection from the the Faith must be legally known, which happens either by declaration or by notoriety. But the notoriety requires that not only the fact of the crime be publicly known, but also its imputability (Canon 2197). In the case, however, of defection from the Catholic Faith, either through heresy or through schism, it is necessary that the defection be pertinacious in order that it be imputable. Otherwise the law becomes absurd: every priest who through lack of advertence in a sermon pronounces a heresy would be guilty of notorious heresy, with all of the connected penalties, and tacitly would renounce his office. But defection from the Catholic Faith on the part of conciliar “popes,” although it be public with regard to fact, is not public with regard to imputability, and therefore there is no tacit renunciation. What is public is the intention of these “popes” to promulgate errors condemned by the ecclesiastical magisterium, and a sacramental practice which is heretical and blasphemous. Because this is so, one must conclude they necessarily do not possess apostolic authority, but one cannot conclude more or less. Not more, because competent authority alone is able to ascertain and declare legally the reality of their defection from the Catholic Faith, and not less, because it is impossible that apostolic authority, because of the infallibility and indefectibility of the Church, promulgate errors which have been condemned by the ecclesiastical magisterium, and a sacramental practice which is heretical and blasphemous.
    Instance: But Canon 188 says that the renunciation does not require a declaration.
    Resp.: Does not require a declaration of the vacancy of the office, if the imputable defection is notorious or declared by law; I concede; if the defection is not notoriously imputable, or declared, I deny. In other words, it is necessary that public defection from the Catholic Faith have a certain legal recognition, either by the notoriety of the imputability or by legal declaration.
    Instance: But the imputability of the defection of these “popes” is notorious.
    Resp.: I deny. In order that imputability be notorious, it is necessary that either (1) he who has pronounced the heresy publicly confess that he professes a doctrine which is against the magisterium of the Church, such as Luther; (2) when he has been warned by the authority of the Church, and the warning having been made, he publicly reject the authority. But neither one nor the other of these conditions are fulfilled in the conciliar “popes.” Therefore the imputability of the defection is not notorious.
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    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #171 on: April 07, 2017, 12:36:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on April 05, 2017, 07:21:48 PM
    I would say something. I said the sedevacantists say that the sedevacantists are now the Catholic Church. This is true of some, but others say that the traditional Catholic movement including the SSPX is now the Catholic Church and not what everyone else thinks the Catholic Church is.

    The Catholic Church MUST exist someplace since it cannot be extinguished, so the true church must be either in the Novus ordo, SSPX, or with the sedevacantists. Saying, "each position has its own problems" is to imply everyone is in error and that truth cannot be found anywhere on the earth, which is absurd. One of them, and ONLY one of them, holds the truth. You need to find out which one it is and put complete faith behind them.
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    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #172 on: April 07, 2017, 12:50:47 PM »
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    • Quote from: Augustinus on April 07, 2017, 12:14:26 AM
    The Pope APPEARS to be a heretic, but unless he acknowledges the nature of his heresy he doesn't actually lose his office. For that to happen you need not only publicnotorious heresy, but public notorious heresy by one who acknowledges it as such.
     
    This is totally wrong. This was discussed by the Church Fathers of the First Vatican Council and they said otherwise: 

    Life and Life Work of Pope Leo XIII [imprimatur 1903], p. 241:
    "The question was also raised (at the First Vatican Council) by a Cardinal, “What is to be done with the Pope if he becomes a heretic?” It was answered that there has never been such a case; the Council of Bishops could depose him for heresy, for from the moment he becomes a heretic he is not the head or even a member of the Church. The Church would not be, for a moment, obliged to listen to him when he begins to teach a doctrine the Church knows to be a false doctrine, and he would cease to be Pope, being deposed by God Himself. If the Pope, for instance, were to say that the belief in God is false, you would not be obliged to believe him, or if he were to deny the rest of the creed, “I believe in Christ,” etc. The supposition is injurious to the Holy Father in the very idea, but serves to show you the fullness with which the subject has been considered and the ample thought given to every possibility. If he denies any dogma of the Church held by every true believer, he is no more Pope than either you or I; and so in this respect the dogma of infallibility amounts to nothing as an article of temporal government or cover for heresy."
     
     
     
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #173 on: April 07, 2017, 01:23:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: saintbosco13 on April 07, 2017, 12:36:50 PM
    The Catholic Church MUST exist someplace since it cannot be extinguished, so the true church must be either in the Novus ordo, SSPX, or with the sedevacantists. Saying, "each position has its own problems" is to imply everyone is in error and that truth cannot be found anywhere on the earth, which is absurd. One of them, and ONLY one of them, holds the truth. You need to find out which one it is and put complete faith behind them.
    Are the sedevacantists "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic?" Are the sedevacantists infallible and indefectible and do they have authority from God? The Church is supposed to be all of these things but I do not see it in the sedevacantists. I think they have a point when they say the Novus Ordo might not be the Church, but I don't think they can reasonably argue that they are the Church either if they honestly look at the sedevacantists with the same scrutiny they look at the Novus Ordo. And I think it absurd to claim that the Church can go on for generations with no pope and no way of ever getting another pope without divine intervention, though sedeprivationism does not have this problem because in that system the Novus Ordo pope could convert and become the true Pope. And I see a big contradiction when they say the Church is indefectible, but they basically all believe that the Church defected and became a false sect and that now we can no longer follow it but instead we have to follow a few dozen self-appointed men who might have valid orders but were never sent by the Church. Sure some of them try to save indefectibility by claiming there is one or two faithful Bishops who have not defected but none of them can name them and none of them follow them. I do not know which position is right and I see problems with all of the positions so it is a mystery to me. I don't have the answers either but as far as I can tell, neither do you, you just claim to.

    If I had to guess what the truth of the matter was I would guess there is a true Pope in hiding, but there are problems with that as well.
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #174 on: April 07, 2017, 01:43:44 PM »
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    • The main sedevacantist groups are the CMRI and the SSPV but they condemn each other and are not in communion with each other so they cannot both be the same Church (or at least the SSPV condemns the CMRI and refuses the sacraments to those who go to CMRI Masses, I don't know if the CMRI does the same to those who go to SSPV Masses). The SSPV did not exist until the 1980s so it seems more likely that the CMRI was the true Church because the CMRI existed earlier, but then the CMRI was generally considered a cult with old catholic orders led by a man who we all know had serious moral failings and reportedly wore a white cassock and some say claimed to be a pope. Or is Palmar de Troya the true Church? Or did the true Church exist in Archsbishop Thuc alone?
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #175 on: April 07, 2017, 01:56:12 PM »
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    • I should have added Thuc and his Bishops.
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    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #176 on: April 07, 2017, 04:28:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on April 07, 2017, 01:23:46 PM
    Are the sedevacantists "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic?" Are the sedevacantists infallible and indefectible and do they have authority from God? The Church is supposed to be all of these things but I do not see it in the sedevacantists. I think they have a point when they say the Novus Ordo might not be the Church, but I don't think they can reasonably argue that they are the Church either if they honestly look at the sedevacantists with the same scrutiny they look at the Novus Ordo. And I think it absurd to claim that the Church can go on for generations with no pope and no way of ever getting another pope without divine intervention, though sedeprivationism does not have this problem because in that system the Novus Ordo pope could convert and become the true Pope. And I see a big contradiction when they say the Church is indefectible, but they basically all believe that the Church defected and became a false sect and that now we can no longer follow it but instead we have to follow a few dozen self-appointed men who might have valid orders but were never sent by the Church. Sure some of them try to save indefectibility by claiming there is one or two faithful Bishops who have not defected but none of them can name them and none of them follow them. I do not know which position is right and I see problems with all of the positions so it is a mystery to me. I don't have the answers either but as far as I can tell, neither do you, you just claim to.

    If I had to guess what the truth of the matter was I would guess there is a true Pope in hiding, but there are problems with that as well.

    First, St. Athanasius was quoted as saying, "Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." Scripture also is very clear in stating that the path to heaven is narrow, and few find it. These are things we must keep in mind - only the minority will hold the truth.

    We should also remember the Catholic Church is ONE in doctrine, so for example, the SSPX and the sedevacantist positions both cannot be right at the same time.

    You give many examples of problems that exist with the groups today. This is EXPECTED. If you were alive 2000 years ago and witnessed Judas betray Jesus and St. Peter deny Him 3 times, would you say Jesus and His Apostles didn't hold the truth because they had problems? Of course not.

    The bottom line again is that there MUST be one group, no matter how small, that is the true church. You obviously need to make a decision ASAP on which one it is. You need to rethink the discrepancies you have for each group - you are obviously mistaken on one of them.
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #177 on: April 07, 2017, 04:50:10 PM »
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    • You seem to be suggesting that my salvation depends upon solving the mystery of this crisis. After you spend most of your time here arguing for salvation for non-Catholics who do not even believe in Jesus, are you really going to try to argue outside of sedevacantism there is no salvation on me? That seems to be your point. How would I have to make a decision ASAP on it if it was not a matter of salvation?
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    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #178 on: April 07, 2017, 04:56:51 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matto on April 07, 2017, 04:50:10 PM
    You seem to be suggesting that my salvation depends upon solving the mystery of this crisis. After you spend most of your time here arguing for salvation for non-Catholics who do not even believe in Jesus, are you really going to try to argue outside of sedevacantism there is no salvation on me? That seems to be your point. How would I have to make a decision ASAP on it if it was not a matter of salvation?
     
    You are putting words in my mouth here. Catholics are to avoid heresy and schism, so wouldn't you want to make sure there are neither where you attend Mass? This is a no-brainer! There is 2000 years of Church teaching that gives us all the answers - you don't need to solve anything. The answers are there.
     
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    Offline Matto

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #179 on: April 07, 2017, 05:06:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: saintbosco13 on April 07, 2017, 04:56:51 PM

    You are putting words in my mouth here. Catholics are to avoid heresy and schism, so wouldn't you want to make sure there are neither where you attend Mass? This is a no-brainer! There is 2000 years of Church teaching that gives us all the answers - you don't need to solve anything. The answers are there.
     
    If the answers were so clear why are there a billion Catholics who are in the Novus Ordo? Why are there a million Catholics who are in the SSPX? Why are there a few dozen thousand sedevacantists all split into seperate warring factions who cannot even agree on which Masses are acceptable to go to and which missal they should use? It is certainly not clear at all. I think Bishop Sanborn and Father Cekada and Bishop Williamson and Bishop Pivarunas and Father Jenkins are all very bright men but they are all opposed to each other on key issues. So where are the answers?
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