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Author Topic: What good is Sedevacantism?  (Read 11795 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
« Reply #135 on: April 04, 2017, 12:47:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on April 04, 2017, 12:35:37 PM
    2) we owe even absolute assent (the certainty of faith) to things taught by the Pope in an infallible manner.  So when teaching infallibly, the Pope might as well in fact be God.
    I agree with this certainly, but that's not the way you said it the first time.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #136 on: April 04, 2017, 01:22:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on April 04, 2017, 12:47:25 PM
    I agree with this certainly, but that's not the way you said it the first time.

    I agree.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #137 on: April 04, 2017, 01:34:49 PM »
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    • Meg, VIRTUE is always found between two extremes, not doctrine. Many people wrongly believe otherwise, and the result is "compromise" with doctrine.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #138 on: April 04, 2017, 01:43:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: BumphreyHogart on April 04, 2017, 01:34:49 PM
    Meg, VIRTUE is always found between two extremes, not doctrine. Many people wrongly believe otherwise, and the result is "compromise" with doctrine.

    What about Archbishop Lefebvre? Did he compromise with doctrine, in your view?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #139 on: April 04, 2017, 01:55:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on April 04, 2017, 12:47:25 PM
    I agree with this certainly, but that's not the way you said it the first time.

    It's because, like the sedevacantists, you don't understand the difference between submission and assent.  I have been perfectly consistent on this point for years also.

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    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #140 on: April 04, 2017, 01:57:37 PM »
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    • I am giving you the principle. If you want me to apply it to a particular issue, let me know what that issue is. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #141 on: April 04, 2017, 02:09:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: BumphreyHogart on April 04, 2017, 01:57:37 PM
    I am giving you the principle. If you want me to apply it to a particular issue, let me know what that issue is.

    So....you believe that there are particular issues of doctrine that the Archbishop compromised on?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #142 on: April 04, 2017, 02:28:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on April 04, 2017, 11:44:43 AM
    This is wrong. I would like to see where got this from.

    Please provide your source.

    FYI, the truth of the matter is, those things which we are bound in conscience too besides dogmatic decrees, are doctrinal decisions stemming from pontifical congregations, or to points of doctrine which, with common and constant consent, are held in the Church as truths and as theological conclusions so certain that opposing opinions, though they may not be dubbed heretical, nonetheless, merit some other form of theological censure. - Pope Pius IX

    We are never to owe anyone and are even forbidden by God to give submission of our mind and will to anyone except God, certainly not even the pope - but it should be getting plain to see that with a mentality like that, is there any wonder the sheeple compromised by the millions upon the wishes of the pope and hierarcy?
    Stubborn, can you provide a definition of "Religious Submission"
    And contrast it with "Catholic Faith"?
    Here is what Cardinal Franzelin says-
    "The Holy Apostolic See, to whom the guarding of the Deposit has been committed, and on whom the duty and office of feeding the entire Church, unto the salvation of souls, has been laid, can prescribe theological opinions (or other opinions to the extent that they are connected with theological ones) as to be followed, or proscribe them as not to be followed, not only with the intention of deciding the truth infallibly by definitive sentence, but also without that intention, [but] with the need and the intention of exercising care, either simply or with specified qualifications, for the safety of Catholic doctrine. [ref. omitted] In this sort of declarations, even though there is not the infallible truth of the doctrine (because, ex hypothesi, there is not the intention of deciding this), but nevertheless, there is infallible safety [infallibilis securitas]. By safety, I mean both objective safety as to the doctrine so declared (either simply or with such and such qualifications), and subjective safety, to the extent that it is safe for all to embrace it, and it is not safe, nor can it be free from the violation of due submission toward the divinely constituted Magisterium, that they should refuse to embrace it." 
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    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)

    Offline Augustinus

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #143 on: April 04, 2017, 02:34:00 PM »
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    The saints are few, but we must live with the few if we would be saved with the few. O God, too few indeed they are; yet among those few I wish to be!
    -St. Alphonsus Liguori. (The Holy Eucharist, 494)

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #144 on: April 04, 2017, 06:33:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on April 04, 2017, 02:09:38 PM
    So....you believe that there are particular issues of doctrine that the Archbishop compromised on?

    No, I can't say that. I know he was "wrong" about some things, but whether he "compromised" means that he attempted to believe something between two other extreme beliefs just for the sake of being between. I can't say that because I don't know. That is why I asked for some particulars if you want me to comment.
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    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #145 on: April 04, 2017, 07:01:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on April 04, 2017, 09:45:34 AM

    My dad passed away, so I'm not able to consult him. Besides, he hated Christianity, having been raised in a Protestant Pentacostal snake-handling hillbilly church. He wasn't able to forgive, unfortunately.

    Anyway, what do you think of Archbishop Lefebvre's position? I mean, that the Church is occupied by a Modernist sect?

    Bishop Tissier de Mallerais developed the view further. His study is here:

    http://www.dominicansavrille.us/is-there-a-conciliar-church/

    Excerpt:

    "It [the study] reflects Archbishop Lefebvre's true position concerning the mystery of a Pope residing over the destruction of the Church: The Pope remains the Pope, but he is at the head of two churches [...].
    the point I'm trying to convey is that you are too harsh in your insulting of sedevacantists, calling us nutty for believing an heretic can't be pope? I say the main difference between the sede and non sede trad is that one group believes a declaration is needed, the other no...I agree with Arch Bishop Lefebvre that the Church is occupied by freemason jews, they have attacked the Church for centuries....if you believe your pope is Catholic you would be mistaken, if you believe your pope is not Catholic but still your pope I say so be it, believe what you want just don't get on a high horse and think you're better than a Catholic who holds the sede position..
     
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #146 on: April 04, 2017, 07:22:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: sedevacantist3 on April 04, 2017, 07:01:48 PM
    the point I'm trying to convey is that you are too harsh in your insulting of sedevacantists, calling us nutty for believing an heretic can't be pope? I say the main difference between the sede and non sede trad is that one group believes a declaration is needed, the other no...I agree with Arch Bishop Lefebvre that the Church is occupied by freemason jews, they have attacked the Church for centuries....if you believe your pope is Catholic you would be mistaken, if you believe your pope is not Catholic but still your pope I say so be it, believe what you want just don't get on a high horse and think you're better than a Catholic who holds the sede position..
     

    Well, Archbishop Lefebvre believed that "his" pope (JPll) was indeed the pope, so I'm in good company. The Archbishop didn't think like a sede. He didn't have that type of mindset. He was mature and prudent, and he understood the Catholic Faith better than you or I.

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #147 on: April 04, 2017, 07:58:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on April 04, 2017, 07:22:41 PM
    Well, Archbishop Lefebvre believed that "his" pope (JPll) was indeed the pope, so I'm in good company. The Archbishop didn't think like a sede. He didn't have that type of mindset. He was mature and prudent, and he understood the Catholic Faith better than you or I.
    I agree wih Archbishop Lefebvre here:

    If we are certain that the Faith taught by the Church for twenty centuries can contain no error, we are much less certain that the pope is truly pope. Heresy, schism, excommunication ipso facto, or invalid election are all causes that can possibly mean the pope was never pope, or is no longer pope...Archbishop Lefebvre, Aug. 4, 1976
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #148 on: April 04, 2017, 08:34:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: sedevacantist3 on April 04, 2017, 07:58:23 PM
    I agree wih Archbishop Lefebvre here:

    If we are certain that the Faith taught by the Church for twenty centuries can contain no error, we are much less certain that the pope is truly pope. Heresy, schism, excommunication ipso facto, or invalid election are all causes that can possibly mean the pope was never pope, or is no longer pope...Archbishop Lefebvre, Aug. 4, 1976

    So....the purpose of the above quote is supposed to prove what, exactly?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #149 on: April 05, 2017, 12:01:47 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on April 04, 2017, 08:34:10 PM
    So....the purpose of the above quote is supposed to prove what, exactly?
    that at the very least you can not be certain that this pope is a true pope, the sede is far from nuts.
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