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Author Topic: What good is Sedevacantism?  (Read 11793 times)

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Offline TKGS

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Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
« Reply #75 on: March 31, 2017, 08:31:41 PM »
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  • No, it was not answered, certainly you never answered it - you never answer questions.

    To see what an answer looks like, read seven's post. That's answering a clear question with a clear answer.
    You think his answer is a proper answer because he agrees with you.  That is the only reason you think it is a good answer.  You simply ignore what is said when someone disagrees with you and declare that the question has not been answered.  Your ability to understand is hampered by your inability to learn.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #76 on: April 01, 2017, 05:01:18 AM »
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  • You think his answer is a proper answer because he agrees with you.  That is the only reason you think it is a good answer.  You simply ignore what is said when someone disagrees with you and declare that the question has not been answered.  Your ability to understand is hampered by your inability to learn.
    Seven gave another clear answer to this post. I do not agree entirely with his answer, I was happy to see the question answered and that's the point - the point is, he answered the question, unlike you and unlike anyone else here who replied to the question rather than actually answering the question.
    It is not my inability to learn that disturbs you, it is your inability to answer questions. So again, read seven's answer to know what a clear answer to a clear question looks like.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #77 on: April 01, 2017, 05:42:28 AM »
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  • What Good is Sedevacantism


    To know what is "Good" about Sedevacantism , we must first know what it is, and what it represents !

    Try this out for size...


    What is Sedevacantism?

    Sedevacantism comes from the Latin sede vacante, which means “seat vacant.” It is the position held by traditional Catholics who claim that the Papal Seat, the Holy See, has been vacant since the death of Pope Pius XII in 1958.

    Sedevacantists believe that the subsequent claimants to the papal office — John XXIII (1958–1963), Paul VI (1963–1978), John Paul I (1978), John Paul II (1978–2005) and Benedict XVI (since 2005) — have been neither true Catholics nor true, legitimate popes.

    Sedevacantism owes its origins to the rejection of the theological and disciplinary changes implemented following the Second Vatican Council (1962–1965).

    Sedevacantists reject this Council and all its decrees, most notably its docuмents on ecuмenism and religious liberty, which contradicts the traditional teachings of the Catholic Church and denies the unique mission of Catholicism as the one true religion, outside of which there is no salvation.

    Sedevacantists also reject the New Mass of Paul VI, promulgated on 3 April 1969, as invalid since it has changed the words of consecration and deviated from the tradition of the Church.

    See if That will help you out!

    What good does all this do ? ,,,

    It reconizes, there is not a true Pope in the chair of Peter, and that a Heretic , cannot be a Pope, or head of the Holy Roman Catholic Church,  Outside of Which their is No Salvation..
    That answers the question? Where is there any good in supposedly knowing that the seat is vacant? All you gave was yet another example of a non-answer.

    All you are doing is what the others have done - writing a reply that does not even address the question.

    Correct me if I'm wrong but while having no actual authority whatsoever, but by certainly having knowledge of the popes' sins, this certain knowledge is the determining factor which is supposed to qualify sedevacantists to conclude that they know with certainty the Chair of St. Peter is empty. Is this correct?

    What good is that to all the other traditional Catholics who have the same knowledge of the popes' sins, yet disagree that this knowledge in some way qualifies them to conclude the same above popes have been deprived of their office?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #78 on: April 01, 2017, 05:52:21 AM »
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  • Quote
    sede3 said:

    You do have an oposite position to that of the sedevacantist, you believe a non catholic is head of the Church of Christ..why can't you answer the question...what good is it?

    your question is ridiculous, a person who holds the sedevacantist position didn't create the crisis...we're in a crisis period. what good is it? ...so you don't have a clue

    I quote Lefebvre precisely because he didn't hold the sedevacantist position. yet he questioned seriously the question of whether the pope was a true pope....before jew Borgolio came along, your freemason pope who spews anti catholicism at an unprecedented rate ...  totally logical, do you get it now or will you continue with your nonsense
    Yes, I do have an opposite position to that of sedevacantists, but to state it correctly, and to put it more precisely and clearly so that there can be no misunderstanding in the matter, sedevacantists hold an opposite position to that of the Catholic Church.


    As the OP's ridiculous question asked, what good is that?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #79 on: April 01, 2017, 06:56:22 AM »
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  • Yes, I do have an opposite position to that of sedevacantists, but to state it correctly, and to put it more precisely and clearly so that there can be no misunderstanding in the matter, sedevacantists hold an opposite position to that of the Catholic Church.


    As the OP's ridiculous question asked, what good is that?
    wrong, you can't prove "sedevacantists hold an opposite position to that of the Catholic Church. '
    why don't you state precisely what your position is?
    here are some options to help you out as you seem to be struggling
    option 1. Jewgorglio is a catholic, sedevacantists are nuts
    2.Jewgorglio is a heretic but since there is  no declaration from the church he is my pope
    3.Jewgorglio is a heretic and no declaration needed from the church...the sede position


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #80 on: April 01, 2017, 07:13:27 AM »
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  • wrong, you can't prove "sedevacantists hold an opposite position to that of the Catholic Church. '
    why don't you state precisely what your position is?
    here are some options to help you out as you seem to be struggling
    option 1. Jewgorglio is a catholic, sedevacantists are nuts
    2.Jewgorglio is a heretic but since there is  no declaration from the church he is my pope
    3.Jewgorglio is a heretic and no declaration needed from the church...the sede position
    No, not wrong, you have still not answered the ridiculous question and proof is, sedevacantism itself is a doctrine of man, not of the Church - so what good is sedevacantism?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #81 on: April 01, 2017, 08:41:42 AM »
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  • Precious Blood is in all the sacraments, IF, priests are Truly ordained.  That is what I want, Precious Blood, for the Powers are in the Blood and Body of Christ. Correct!?


    St. Athanasius and those minority who followed him, went without the Sacraments, or had them scarcely and in dire and dangerous situations...even though the Arians had the true Sacraments. This is because we are obliged to flee parishes that even have one heresy.

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #82 on: April 01, 2017, 08:42:25 AM »
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  • The question, "What good is Sedevacantism?" is actually a secondary question.

    The first question must be, "is it true?"

    So, assuming it is true....
    Of course it is good. God is Truth. Truth is good. Truth opposes error. We are obliged to seek and hold to the truth come what may, and to help eradicated error that are brothers are affected by. The truth eradicates contradictions. All of that is good and pleases God. Pleasing God is the meaning of life. Furthermore, when facing any problem, one must understand the problem first in order to expect a secure and lasting solution in the future, even if we don't know yet what that exactly is. Sedevacantism does all of this.....again, assuming it is true.


    bump


    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #83 on: April 01, 2017, 10:05:23 AM »
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  • No, not wrong, you have still not answered the ridiculous question and proof is, sedevacantism itself is a doctrine of man, not of the Church - so what good is sedevacantism?
    again let the record show  you can't clarify your position..I have proved that your question is nonsensical..the answer is there's nothing good about the crisis we're in..why not concentrate on other issues you are more knowledgeable about...

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #84 on: April 01, 2017, 12:27:08 PM »
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  • St. Athanasius and those minority who followed him, went without the Sacraments, or had them scarcely and in dire and dangerous situations...even though the Arians had the true Sacraments. This is because we are obliged to flee parishes that even have one heresy.

    That means that there is really nowhere nowadays we can obtain the True Blood, right? Better to stay home alone on Sundays? Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that you are advocating home-aloneism here and this is precisely a perfect example of what is bad in strict, dogmatic sedevacantism.

    This does not happen in sedeprivationism or sedevacantism which is not dogmatic, but merely opinionist.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #85 on: April 01, 2017, 12:34:40 PM »
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  • That means that there is really nowhere nowadays we can obtain the True Blood, right? Better to stay home alone on Sundays? Please correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me that you are advocating home-aloneism here and this is precisely a perfect example of what is bad in strict, dogmatic sedevacantism.

    This does not happen in sedeprivationism or sedevacantism which is not dogmatic, but merely opinionist.


    There are plenty of valid Masses and priests without heresy around the world.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #86 on: April 01, 2017, 02:21:30 PM »
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  • again let the record show  you can't clarify your position..I have proved that your question is nonsensical..the answer is there's nothing good about the crisis we're in..why not concentrate on other issues you are more knowledgeable about...
    I clarified it, look at post #84 where I said it clearly enough for an elementary student to understand when I said.... "Yes, I do have an opposite position to that of sedevacantists, but to state it correctly, and to put it more precisely and clearly so that there can be no misunderstanding in the matter, sedevacantists hold an opposite position to that of the Catholic Church."

    Now feel free to answer the question, yes, it is a ridiculous question - we both agree on that, but for different reasons entirely.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #87 on: April 01, 2017, 03:34:06 PM »
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  • I clarified it, look at post #84 where I said it clearly enough for an elementary student to understand when I said.... "Yes, I do have an opposite position to that of sedevacantists, but to state it correctly, and to put it more precisely and clearly so that there can be no misunderstanding in the matter, sedevacantists hold an opposite position to that of the Catholic Church."

    Now feel free to answer the question, yes, it is a ridiculous question - we both agree on that, but for different reasons entirely.
    And I responded post 84 so that even an elementary student could understand, why can't you answer a basic question?
    wrong, you can't prove "sedevacantists hold an opposite position to that of the Catholic Church. '
    why don't you state precisely what your position is?
    here are some options to help you out as you seem to be struggling
    option 1. Jewgorglio is a catholic, sedevacantists are nuts
    2.Jewgorglio is a heretic but since there is  no declaration from the church he is my pope
    3.Jewgorglio is a heretic and no declaration needed from the church...the sede position

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #88 on: April 01, 2017, 04:48:34 PM »
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  • And I responded post 84 so that even an elementary student could understand, why can't you answer a basic question?
    wrong, you can't prove "sedevacantists hold an opposite position to that of the Catholic Church. '
    why don't you state precisely what your position is?
    here are some options to help you out as you seem to be struggling
    option 1. Jewgorglio is a catholic, sedevacantists are nuts
    2.Jewgorglio is a heretic but since there is  no declaration from the church he is my pope
    3.Jewgorglio is a heretic and no declaration needed from the church...the sede position
    But you never answered the ridiculous question - what good is sedevacantism?

    I already stated my position - sedevacantism is a doctrine of man - and as if you don't know - like all doctrines of man, this doctrine is contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church. If you cannot understand that, I suggest you look into it a little and stop looking for ways to ignore this fact.

    The dogma states quite definitively that it is altogether necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. . . . do you see that there is no proviso to this dogma saying ". . .unless you don't believe the pope is the Roman Pontiff".?

    This can only mean one of two things; 1) that per the dogma, no matter what you think or how strongly you believe in your own opinion, you can never get to heaven because you reject being subject to the pope or 2) sedevacantists have figured out how to get into heaven while positively rejecting being subject to the pope on the grounds they don't believe he is the pope.

    For my eternity, I will err on the side of caution and live and die by #1, which paraphrasing St. Thomas More's last words, is to say that I remain the pope's good subject, but God's first.

    You?
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #89 on: April 01, 2017, 05:44:27 PM »
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  • But you never answered the ridiculous question - what good is sedevacantism?

    I already stated my position - sedevacantism is a doctrine of man - and as if you don't know - like all doctrines of man, this doctrine is contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church. If you cannot understand that, I suggest you look into it a little and stop looking for ways to ignore this fact.

    The dogma states quite definitively that it is altogether necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff. . . . do you see that there is no proviso to this dogma saying ". . .unless you don't believe the pope is the Roman Pontiff".?

    This can only mean one of two things; 1) that per the dogma, no matter what you think or how strongly you believe in your own opinion, you can never get to heaven because you reject being subject to the pope or 2) sedevacantists have figured out how to get into heaven while positively rejecting being subject to the pope on the grounds they don't believe he is the pope.

    For my eternity, I will err on the side of caution and live and die by #1, which paraphrasing St. Thomas More's last words, is to say that I remain the pope's good subject, but God's first.

    You?
     

    Do you not reject that dogma by resisting him...just because you recognize him as your pope doesn't mean you have been subject to him. there have been many anti popes in the history of the church, by that fact alone you should realize the possibility Jewgorglio is an anti pope..which he is. Even if you're not convinced you have no basis to be so anti sede. My arguement is you are not erring on the side of caution because if you don't hold the sede position you are either stating
    a. Jewgorglio professes the Catholic faith ( he doesn't) or
    b.that he is a heretic but since the church hasn't made a declaration he is still pope
    what other options are there that I'm missing, please enlighten me. at the end of the day the difference between you and me is you believe you need a declaration from the Church and I don't believe the Church teaches it. In no way am I putting my soul a risk for taking the sede position, you can't prove that.  I don't believe in my own opinion, I rely on the church doctors.


    St. Francis De Sales (17thcentury), Doctor of the Church,The Catholic Controversy

    , pp.305-306: " Now when he [the Pope] is explicitly a heretic, he falls ipso facto from his dignity and out of the Church