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Author Topic: What good is Sedevacantism?  (Read 10272 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2017, 06:53:52 PM »
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  • And for all your quotes from famous Doctors of the Church (I believe one of them is St. Robert Bellarmine) suggesting that a "Sede vacante" state could be possible if the Pope were to fall into heresy, I'd like to see where these same Doctors and saints rubber stamp the idea of a FIFTY NINE YEAR INTERREGNUM...not just from the Papacy, but from the College of Cardinals as well!


    Because let's face it -- we're not having this conversation in 1970 or 1975, as many people did back then.

    You and I are having this conversation in 2017, which is 59 years after the death of Pope Pius XII.

    As a matter of fact, the Restoration of the Church seems farther away than ever before. Humanly speaking, it appears that all is lost. Maybe that's a good sign? (cf. Our Lady of Fatima)

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    Offline sedevacantist3

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #16 on: March 26, 2017, 07:58:15 PM »
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  • The sedevacantist position is the only one that makes sense..the opposite would be you believe your pope Borgolio, the heretic from hell is Catholic..so the question is do you believe he is a Catholic? I believe he is an anti pope , any one should be able to see it ...what does that make me? a sedevacantist? I'm open to a more accurate term if one exists


    Offline Gregory I

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #17 on: March 26, 2017, 08:07:38 PM »
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  • Anyone who attempts to answer that question ends up answering a different question:

    "What good is Traditional Catholicism?"

    But that's not the question I asked.

    Traditional Catholicism is defined as: "The movement by which Catholics deal with the Crisis in the Church (an unprecedented split between Truth and Authority) by cleaving to Truth rather than Authority which has abused its power and over-stepped its bounds. Specifically and practically speaking, this consists of leaving the Conciliar Church structure (the Novus Ordo Mass) completely, and seeking out sure priests and sure sacraments(1) wherever they can be found, with the aim of keeping the Faith and saving their souls. Permission to do this is not sought from said Authority, since such permission is not required.(2)

    (1) The Novus Ordo Mass is a doubtful Rite, at least opening itself up to invalidity. The Tridentine Mass is a sure thing. The Church teaches that when you have a choice between "100% sure" and "75% sure" you are morally obligated to go with the "100%" option.
    The same goes for priests. They did change the Rite of Ordination and the Rite of Consecration. Why risk invalidity, when the old Rite is 100% certain? Therefore we are obligated to stick with the safer route.

    (2) This part of the essential definition of "Traditional Catholic" necessarily leads to the conclusion that Indult and Diocesan fans of the "Latin Mass" or "Extraordinary Form" are not true Traditional Catholics -- which is correct. They can be called conservatives, fans of the Latin Mass, but they lack understanding of the Traditional Movement, its purposes and justifications.

    Likewise, when people try to attach Bishop Williamson/Archbishop Lefebvre's position on the Novus Ordo Mass, they end up preaching the virtues of the Traditional Catholic position. But, again, that was not the topic of discussion.

    My question: what virtues are SPECIFIC to the Sedevacantist position, and its consequent beliefs about the Papacy, the visible Church, the restoration of the Church, the status of the N.O.M., and the status of all Catholics in the Conciliar Church.

    People seem to confuse the Pope question (quite optional, and best left alone) with the essential (saving our souls, which requires true priests and true sacraments -- i.e., Traditional Catholicism)

    One of these is clearly God's will for each one of us (saving our souls), while the other is quite debatable (personally, I think it's above our pay grade -- especially for those of us in the Lay state!)

    That has to be the question, because the discussion is certainly not about "To Tradition or NOT to Tradition" -- I think we can all agree that Traditional Catholicism is the way to go. The debate is about going the next step, and deposing the Pope and the entire Conciliar structure as absolutely, simpliciter, literally "not Catholic".
    Here's an answer to which I no longer subscribe-
    Just as in the case of an antipope vs a real pope, the true Catholic comes down on the side of the true Pope and condemns the false one, in the case of a false pope vs. a real vacancy, the true Catholic will come down on the side of the vacant see so as not to align himself with a false Pope. The practical advantage is not one of restoration, but to provide against innovation, to identify more fully the true enemies of the Church, and to frame a context within which to act.
    'Take care not to resemble the multitude whose knowledge of God's will only condemns them to more severe punishment.'

    -St. John of Avila

    Offline ranlare

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #18 on: March 27, 2017, 07:59:23 AM »
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  • FIFTY NINE YEAR INTERREGNUM...not just from the Papacy, but from the College of Cardinals as well!


    Truly absurd... and the cherry on the top of their scandalous/false narrative is that they refuse to lift the slightest finger to fill their imagined vacancy, as they seduce gullible souls like Mithrandylan, see: https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/new-traditional-catholic-chapel-mn/msg543934/#msg543934
    "More souls go to Hell because of sins of the flesh than for any other reason." -Our Lady of Fatima, to Jacinta Marto

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #19 on: March 27, 2017, 12:29:23 PM »
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  • Truly absurd... and the cherry on the top of their scandalous/false narrative is that they refuse to lift the slightest finger to fill their imagined vacancy, as they seduce gullible souls like Mithrandylan, see: https://www.cathinfo.com/general-discussion/new-traditional-catholic-chapel-mn/msg543934/#msg543934

    Apparently, you don't know much about what you oppose. It's the prerogative on the clergy of Rome to elect their Bishop, so an election cannot be held by sedevacantists. However, refuse to lift the slightest finger?  Sounds like you don`t think enough of the power of prayers, as well as the fact that one needs to explain the problem correctly before a lasting solution is had. This prerequisite is constantly being done, and it is people like you who want to squelch it.

    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #20 on: March 27, 2017, 01:07:35 PM »
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  • Apparently, you don't know much about what you oppose. It's the prerogative on the clergy of Rome to elect their Bishop, so an election cannot be held by sedevacantists. However, refuse to lift the slightest finger?  Sounds like you don`t think enough of the power of prayers, as well as the fact that one needs to explain the problem correctly before a lasting solution is had. This prerequisite is constantly being done, and it is people like you who want to squelch it.
    For the record, Matthew, BumphreyHogart is none other than Nado, a dogmatic sedevacantist you banned quite some time ago for insulting you personally.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #21 on: March 27, 2017, 02:48:28 PM »
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  • There is no good quality to sedevacantism.  Sedevacantists try to concern Catholics that they are obeying an heretic.  I can assure every single sede in the world that Francis has not asked me to do a single thing.  

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #22 on: March 27, 2017, 03:08:30 PM »
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  • The sedevacantist position is the only one that makes sense..the opposite would be you believe your pope Borgolio, the heretic from hell is Catholic..so the question is do you believe he is a Catholic? I believe he is an anti pope , any one should be able to see it ...what does that make me? a sedevacantist? I'm open to a more accurate term if one exists
    FYI, this is another problem I have with Sedevacantists. They're the most emotional Catholics around.
    "Borgolio, the heretic from hell"

    First of all, it's Bergoglio -- it doesn't take devotion or being a fan to have the BRAINS to remember someone's name, or spell it right.

    Second of all, "heretic from hell"? What evidence do you have that he actually came from hell? Why do you feel the need to emotionally exaggerate the truth?

    At least other sedevacantists limit themselves to calling him a heretic. Why not do the same?

    Because saying "heretic from hell" makes non-sedevacantists look more foolish for not rejecting him? I think that's it. Might as well add a few MORE adjectives, to make non-sedevacantists look even MORE ridiculous. How about "fire-breathing, horned heretic from the deepest pit of hades"?

    This is the essential nature of websites like Novus Ordo Watch and Traditio. By name calling and excessive disrespect, they attempt to make anyone with a less extreme position on the Pope look foolish.
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    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #23 on: March 27, 2017, 03:35:00 PM »
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  • There is no good quality to sedevacantism.  Sedevacantists try to concern Catholics that they are obeying an heretic.  I can assure every single sede in the world that Francis has not asked me to do a single thing.  

    If you believe he is pope, you honor and don't oppose him. You love Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass. That's the way it has always been.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #24 on: March 27, 2017, 03:54:11 PM »
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  • If you believe he is pope, you honor and don't oppose him. You love Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass. That's the way it has always been.
    Resistance to the Pope and the hierarchy has been shown many times over the centuries, usually the resisters became saints too.  

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #25 on: March 27, 2017, 04:35:02 PM »
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  • Resistance to the Pope and the hierarchy has been shown many times over the centuries, usually the resisters became saints too. 



    Never to approved rites, laws and councils.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.


    Offline happenby

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #26 on: March 27, 2017, 05:04:14 PM »
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  • If you believe he is pope, you honor and don't oppose him. You love Vatican II and the Novus Ordo Mass. That's the way it has always been.
    Ah, Bumph... here's a little tp, you got some bs comin out your keyboard.

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #27 on: March 27, 2017, 05:16:14 PM »
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  • Ah, Bumph... here's a little tp, you got some bs comin out your keyboard.



    Give us your greatest example you have in mind.

    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline GottmitunsAlex

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #28 on: March 27, 2017, 05:16:27 PM »
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  • Resistance to the Pope and the hierarchy has been shown many times over the centuries, usually the resisters became saints too.  
    Is that a fact?
    I invite you to listen to this 40 minute conference. It touches on this very subject you have affirmed.
    "Resisters"..

    "As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise: The Jєωs have not recognized Our Lord; therefore we cannot recognize the Jєωιѕн people." -Pope St. Pius X

    "No Jєω adores God! Who say so?  The Son of God say so."

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #29 on: March 27, 2017, 05:40:37 PM »
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  • Is that a fact?
    I invite you to listen to this 40 minute conference. It touches on this very subject you have affirmed.
    "Resisters"..



    Instead of going through 49 minutes of it, can you guess how many minutes into it is the highlight you are thinking of, and from your memory who did it concern?

    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.