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Author Topic: What good is Sedevacantism?  (Read 10276 times)

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Offline Matthew

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What good is Sedevacantism?
« on: March 26, 2017, 03:06:58 PM »
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  • Anyone who attempts to answer that question ends up answering a different question:

    "What good is Traditional Catholicism?"

    But that's not the question I asked.

    Traditional Catholicism is defined as: "The movement by which Catholics deal with the Crisis in the Church (an unprecedented split between Truth and Authority) by cleaving to Truth rather than Authority which has abused its power and over-stepped its bounds. Specifically and practically speaking, this consists of leaving the Conciliar Church structure (the Novus Ordo Mass) completely, and seeking out sure priests and sure sacraments(1) wherever they can be found, with the aim of keeping the Faith and saving their souls. Permission to do this is not sought from said Authority, since such permission is not required.(2)

    (1) The Novus Ordo Mass is a doubtful Rite, at least opening itself up to invalidity. The Tridentine Mass is a sure thing. The Church teaches that when you have a choice between "100% sure" and "75% sure" you are morally obligated to go with the "100%" option.
    The same goes for priests. They did change the Rite of Ordination and the Rite of Consecration. Why risk invalidity, when the old Rite is 100% certain? Therefore we are obligated to stick with the safer route.

    (2) This part of the essential definition of "Traditional Catholic" necessarily leads to the conclusion that Indult and Diocesan fans of the "Latin Mass" or "Extraordinary Form" are not true Traditional Catholics -- which is correct. They can be called conservatives, fans of the Latin Mass, but they lack understanding of the Traditional Movement, its purposes and justifications.

    Likewise, when people try to attach Bishop Williamson/Archbishop Lefebvre's position on the Novus Ordo Mass, they end up preaching the virtues of the Traditional Catholic position. But, again, that was not the topic of discussion.

    My question: what virtues are SPECIFIC to the Sedevacantist position, and its consequent beliefs about the Papacy, the visible Church, the restoration of the Church, the status of the N.O.M., and the status of all Catholics in the Conciliar Church.

    People seem to confuse the Pope question (quite optional, and best left alone) with the essential (saving our souls, which requires true priests and true sacraments -- i.e., Traditional Catholicism)

    One of these is clearly God's will for each one of us (saving our souls), while the other is quite debatable (personally, I think it's above our pay grade -- especially for those of us in the Lay state!)

    That has to be the question, because the discussion is certainly not about "To Tradition or NOT to Tradition" -- I think we can all agree that Traditional Catholicism is the way to go. The debate is about going the next step, and deposing the Pope and the entire Conciliar structure as absolutely, simpliciter, literally "not Catholic".
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #1 on: March 26, 2017, 03:23:55 PM »
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  • Wow Matthew, by framing it in utilitarian terms, you've convinced me that Jorge Bergoglio is the pope. :D
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #2 on: March 26, 2017, 03:28:37 PM »
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  • Wow Matthew, by framing it in utilitarian terms, you've convinced me that Jorge Bergoglio is the pope. :D
    I'm not being utilitarian. I'm being rational. And yes, I'm being a bit practical and grounded in reality.

    To rephrase the question, "Why is sedevacantism necessary, or why would a person be wise to choose that path?"

    Or, "What does Sedevacantism add to Traditional Catholicism, in the work of saving our souls?"

    That's what I meant by "What good is sedevacantism?" I didn't mean, "How does Sedevacantism add to my income?" Or "How does Sedevacantism help with my housework?"

    By being sarcastic in this manner, it makes me wonder why you are changing the subject. Is it because I'm exposing sedevacantism for the dead-end that it is?
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #3 on: March 26, 2017, 04:02:33 PM »
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  • I'm not being utilitarian. I'm being rational. And yes, I'm being a bit practical and grounded in reality.

    To rephrase the question, "Why is sedevacantism necessary, or why would a person be wise to choose that path?"

    Or, "What does Sedevacantism add to Traditional Catholicism, in the work of saving our souls?"

    That's what I meant by "What good is sedevacantism?" I didn't mean, "How does Sedevacantism add to my income?" Or "How does Sedevacantism help with my housework?"

    By being sarcastic in this manner, it makes me wonder why you are changing the subject. Is it because I'm exposing sedevacantism for the dead-end that it is?
    Yes.  You have exposed sedevacantism as practically worthless, and as we all know, what is not useful is not true.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #4 on: March 26, 2017, 04:07:46 PM »
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  • Yes.  You have exposed sedevacantism as practically worthless, and as we all know, what is not useful is not true.
    Well, that might be my eventual conclusion, but I'm giving you a chance to explain why a Sedevacantist Catholic has a better chance of saving his soul than a non-Sedevacantist Traditional Catholic.

    I know, it's a hard question, to the point of impossible to answer. So I'm not surprised you're dodging the question.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #5 on: March 26, 2017, 04:10:06 PM »
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  • I think this is a valid question.

    We're not Traditional Catholics "just because", or because we're feisty, disobedient, or bad people. There is a purpose, a point, to the Traditional Catholic movement. Without it, many more people would go to Hell. We can't have that, so Traditional Catholicism must be promoted, defended, etc.

    I can't say the same about Sedevacantism. It seems more like an accretion, an option, a personal opinion. A useless theological speculation, like "How many angels fit on the head of a pin?"

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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #6 on: March 26, 2017, 04:38:58 PM »
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  • Nah, I'm just having some fun.  But you're asking the wrong question.

    The question is not one of utility, but of truth.  That's something all traditional Catholics can get behind.  The question, "why are we traditional Catholics?" can be answered legitimately by pointing to the fact that traditional Catholicism is true, and that God made us to apprehend the truth.  So the only question that we should be concerned about when approaching sedevacantism from a non sedevacantist position is whether or not it is a true allegation.  Come what may from there.

    I have answers-- regarding the practical benefits of sedevacantism-- I just don't think that they're the primary reason that anyone should end up concluding that the conciliar claimants aren't popes.  The primary reason is distillable to truth; in this instance, a theological truth that is intertwined with the nature of Christ's mystical bride, an organization which is a visible unity of faith and charity, and one from which those who have severed themselves (from either bond) do not belong.

    Even if there were no practical advantages to acknowledging these non-papacies at all, the fact of the matter would remain undisturbed.  I think it's important to acknowledge this.  If we evaluate usefulness before truth, what does that say about us?

    Anyways, those who acknowledge the state of sede vacante have clarity.  They are not pre-occupied with looking at what the "pope" says and figuring out what is true or not.  They're also not pre-occupied with the sedevacantist question, either, which is something sedeplenists find themselves frequently anxious about.  Practical devotions become clearer, because you have a "deadline" after which you know that no pope has canonized a saint, approved a Litany, instituted a change in sacramental rite, etc.  You can actually focus on your spiritual life instead of being absorbed in controversies.  You can tell your children, "that man isn't pope, so don't listen to him."  Now, one could say, "I'm not a sedevacantist but I do all this anyways."  Heh. 

    What do you call a man who doesn't teach as pope, doesn't legislate as pope, doesn't canonize as pope, and doesn't actually do anything a pope does?  To invert the old saying: if it doesn't walk like a duck, or quack like a duck, well...

    Now of course, one needn't be a sedevacantist to go to Heaven, but if we're distilling things to the minimum prerequisite to be saved, once again: what does that say about us?  If a person judges that they can discuss the matter, then let's discuss the matter; let's not focus on pragmatics at the expense of ontology.

    Honestly Matthew, sounds to me like you're convinced of sedevacantism and you're asking the age-old (valid) question: where do we go from here?  Maybe you can share with us how you think the SSPX, or Bishop Williamson, could restore the Church.

    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #7 on: March 26, 2017, 04:43:53 PM »
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  • Perhaps the prime virtue of sedevacantism is that it is not drawn to the Modernist popes.

    So far, every organized group of non-sedevacantist traditionalists have reconciled with Modernist Rome, or is in the process of reconciling, and has compromised on the faith.  Even Bishop Williamson said in one of the conferences that was posted on this forum that he would go to Rome and meet with "the pope" if he was summoned.  Catholics are naturally drawn to the papacy and if one recognizes the wrong man as the pope, one is going to be drawn in the wrong direction.  We can only hope that the Resistance remains more or less unorganized.

    The organized groups of sedevacantist traditionalists with which I have had contact, on the other hand, have absolutely no interest in being recognized by Rome because they see Modernist Rome as having no more authority as, say, the Archbishop of Canterbury.  They have not compromised on the faith even though they have differences of opinions on issues that require a pope to resolve and in practical issues.  (I'm not suggesting that all organized sedevacantist groups fit this as I only have limited experience.)  Sedevacantists will not be drawn in the wrong direction.

    Sedevacantists are also less likely to accept the new Rite of Orders while non-sedevacantists, even those who used to reject the new Rites as, at best, doubtful, have pretty much completely caved on the issue since their current pope was, himself, ordained and consecrated in the New Rites.  Depending upon the individual priest, this goes to the central issue of the validity and invalidity of the sacraments.  I understand that some non-sedevacantists still reject the New Rites but maintain, nonetheless, that Bergoglio is the valid reigning pope, which is beyond my ability to comprehend.


    Offline Matthew

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #8 on: March 26, 2017, 05:27:52 PM »
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  • Honestly Matthew, sounds to me like you're convinced of sedevacantism and you're asking the age-old (valid) question: where do we go from here?  Maybe you can share with us how you think the SSPX, or Bishop Williamson, could restore the Church.
    Now you're asking the wrong question.
    Or you've demonstrated how many sedevacantists "miss the point".

    The problem is, we don't know with anything greater than "moral certainty" that sedevacantism is true, and neither do you.  
    We can act based on moral certainty though, so that isn't a condemnation of you, or others like you.

    But we don't have the certainty of faith, or metaphysical certainty, or the certainty of dogma, on the Pope question. From this truth comes the conclusion that we can't impose our THEOLOGICAL OPINION on others. And that is the principle by which I criticize Fr. Cekada, the Dimond Bros., and other "dogmatic" sedevacantists. They attempt to condemn non-sedevacantists.

    Others go half-way, and say "Oh I don't condemn non-Sedevacantists. Some of them are in ignorance..." But let me ask you: am I in ignorance? Anyone who's been a member of CI longer than a few weeks knows better. So such persons could only conclude that I am malicious.

    I don't know how Bishop Williamson and the Resistance are going to restore the Church. How the Church will be restored is a MYSTERY and I'm OK with that.

    Sedevacantists, on the other hand, want cut-and-dried, simple, humanly understandable solutions they can wrap their minds around. Mystery is ANATHEMA to them. Some even know with certainty how the Church will be restored: a miraculous apparition of St. Michael, or Sts. Peter and Paul. See what I mean? No mystery.

    I, on the other hand, acknowledge the mystery.

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    Offline cathman7

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #9 on: March 26, 2017, 05:33:37 PM »
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  • Perhaps the prime virtue of sedevacantism is that it is not drawn to the Modernist popes.

    So far, every organized group of non-sedevacantist traditionalists have reconciled with Modernist Rome, or is in the process of reconciling, and has compromised on the faith.  Even Bishop Williamson said in one of the conferences that was posted on this forum that he would go to Rome and meet with "the pope" if he was summoned.  Catholics are naturally drawn to the papacy and if one recognizes the wrong man as the pope, one is going to be drawn in the wrong direction.  We can only hope that the Resistance remains more or less unorganized.

    The organized groups of sedevacantist traditionalists with which I have had contact, on the other hand, have absolutely no interest in being recognized by Rome because they see Modernist Rome as having no more authority as, say, the Archbishop of Canterbury.  They have not compromised on the faith even though they have differences of opinions on issues that require a pope to resolve and in practical issues.  (I'm not suggesting that all organized sedevacantist groups fit this as I only have limited experience.)  Sedevacantists will not be drawn in the wrong direction.

    Sedevacantists are also less likely to accept the new Rite of Orders while non-sedevacantists, even those who used to reject the new Rites as, at best, doubtful, have pretty much completely caved on the issue since their current pope was, himself, ordained and consecrated in the New Rites.  Depending upon the individual priest, this goes to the central issue of the validity and invalidity of the sacraments.  I understand that some non-sedevacantists still reject the New Rites but maintain, nonetheless, that Bergoglio is the valid reigning pope, which is beyond my ability to comprehend.
    Well...I see your point but I can think of at least one group of organized sedevacantists that did reconcile with Modernist Rome: the Fraternity of St. Vincent Ferrer (a quasi Dominican religious order). Their founder at least held sedevacantist beliefs for some time. Yet the majority of sedevacantist groups have not. That is not exactly the best argument for sedevacantism though.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #10 on: March 26, 2017, 05:38:14 PM »
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  • Well...I see your point but I can think of at least one group that did reconcile with Modernist Rome: the Fraternity of St. Vincent Ferrer (a quasi Dominican religious order). Yet the majority have not.
    Yes, but while we talk about "how various Trad groups go off the deep end", it should be pointed out that Sedevacantists, by their very nature, are not inclined (or tempted) to "make a deal with Rome" because they believe the Pope is not the Pope and the Church is not the Church. (As an aside, it should be pointed out that Sedevacantists are almost always Ecclesia-vacantist as well as Sede-vacantist)

    The ways Sede groups go off the rails are simply different. They are not SAFER or in a MORE PRUDENT PLACE -- they simply picked a different poison. They go off the rails, percentage wise, just as often. They have just as many problems in their chapels. The problems are just...different.

    For example, Sede groups are more likely to end up in SCHISM with other Catholics, or end up dogmatic "we're the last Catholics on earth" home aloners. 

    How is that any better than going back to the Conciliar Church? Recall that the devil is just as happy to grab you FROM THE RIGHT as well as FROM THE LEFT.

    The Pharisees were a demonic distortion to the Right, just as the Sadducees were the deviation to the Left. Both were condemned by Our Lord.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #11 on: March 26, 2017, 05:44:52 PM »
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  • But we don't have the certainty of faith, or metaphysical certainty, or the certainty of dogma, on the Pope question. 
    We don't have a metaphysical certainty that the pope has to be Catholic? 
    It seems to me that the idea that anyone who claims to be Catholic is, therefore, Catholic is just a re-working of Americanism.  I've often heard people ask what right I or anyone else has to suggest that so-and-so (Bergoglio, Nancy Peℓσѕι, Joe Biden, etc.) aren't Catholic, after all, they say they're Catholic!

    Frankly, I believe that you are wrong on the facts.  Bergoglio is manifestly a heretic.  He has promulgated a new doctrine on marriage (among many, many other things).  He is not a Catholic; he cannot be pope.  

    Admitting this fact does not mean that one cannot acknowledge the very same mystery as you.  You shouldn't attribute the views of some sedevacantists to sedevacantism.  After all, I know a few non-sedevacantists who have blessed candles all over their houses so that they will have light when the "Three Days of Darkness" comes.  I also know non-sedevacantist traditionalists who have told me that everyone associated with the Resistance are apostates!  It's crazy!  

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #12 on: March 26, 2017, 05:51:13 PM »
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  • Yes, but while we talk about "how various Trad groups go off the deep end", it should be pointed out that Sedevacantists, by their very nature, are not inclined (or tempted) to "make a deal with Rome" because they believe the Pope is not the Pope and the Church is not the Church. (As an aside, it should be pointed out that Sedevacantists are almost always Ecclesia-vacantist as well as Sede-vacantist)

    The ways Sede groups go off the rails are simply different. They are not SAFER or in a MORE PRUDENT PLACE -- they simply picked a different poison. They go off the rails, percentage wise, just as often. They have just as many problems in their chapels. The problems are just...different.

    For example, Sede groups are more likely to end up in SCHISM with other Catholics, or end up dogmatic "we're the last Catholics on earth" home aloners.

    How is that any better than going back to the Conciliar Church? Recall that the devil is just as happy to grab you FROM THE RIGHT as well as FROM THE LEFT.

    The Pharisees were a demonic distortion to the Right, just as the Sadducees were the deviation to the Left. Both were condemned by Our Lord.
    Again, you are simply wrong on the facts.  Nothing you are saying is "more likely" for sedevacantists, just some of the sedevacantists you know.  And no, sedevacantists are NOT almost always "Ecclesia-vacantist".  That's just calumny.  You're either making things up or are just listening to people who are telling you stories; at best you're attributing to all what a few have told you.

    By the way, every single sedevacantist I know is willing to consider looking at Rome when the man claiming to be pope at the Vatican is actually a Catholic.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #13 on: March 26, 2017, 06:46:14 PM »
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  • By the way, every single sedevacantist I know is willing to consider looking at Rome when the man claiming to be pope at the Vatican is actually a Catholic.
    Maybe it's my Thomistic philosophy background talking, but it sounds like you believe the True Church could become something other, then go back to being the True Church. That involves not one, but TWO substantial changes.

    That is abhorrent to Thomistic philosophy. Just like we know that conception begins at birth, because if the baby were "something else" until the 12th week (for example), then a substantial change would have to happen at that point. A destruction, followed by a creation. And what was the "creature" before 12 weeks?

    What is more likely is that the Church is gravely sick, disfigured, etc. and will be restored somehow. But if it is to be the Catholic Church someday, then it has to be the Catholic Church right now. Or else the Church has officially FAILED in violation of Christ's promise to St. Peter. Our Blessed Lord does not crawfish on His promises!

    The only way to weasel out of that one, is to resort to some kind of petit eglise or "hidden church" argument. But the Catholic Church has to be visible and recognizable.

    And modern-day Sedevacantists have to admit -- a 59-year Interregnum (time period without a pope) is a real issue, an issue worthy of debate or concern.

    But even what you say suggests that right now (before the Pope starts talking/acting like a Catholic) the Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church. Ergo, I am correct -- ecclesiavacantism.

    Ecclesiavacantism, by the way, is defined as "The Conciliar Church is not the Catholic Church, full stop. Its members are not Catholic. Its bishops have no authority, etc."
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    Offline St Ignatius

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    Re: What good is Sedevacantism?
    « Reply #14 on: March 26, 2017, 06:48:08 PM »
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  • Quote
    What good is Sedevacantism?
    Ask our Lady of Fatima...
    As far as I know, she only requested that we pray for the Pope for he will have much to suffer. I personally believe that if the sedevacantist position carried any weight, Our Lady would have suggested something in the line of praying for a "True Pope" to be appointed. 
    So as far as I'm concerned, in regards to the question, there is no good.