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Author Topic: What does Bishop Williamson say about the validity of Novus Ordo orders?  (Read 5162 times)

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Offline gladius_veritatis

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Re: What does Bishop Williamson say about the validity of Novus Ordo orders?
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2021, 09:25:54 AM »
LOL! So, according to Gladdy, "the combined value of the opinions of (+)ABL, (+)Fellay and (+)Schmidz [Fr. Schmidberger] (and (+)Williamson or whoever else you want to insert/add here) is...ZERO". Whereas your private judgment supposedly is infallibly binding and infinitely valuable? Typical sede-vacantist rubbish.

There have been docuмented Eucharistic Miracles in Masses offered by Priests ordained in the new rite. This fact alone shows that the new rite is not always invalid, contrary to sedevacantist polemicists...

You absurdly and arbitrarily deem the rite to be entirely invalid... [I did nothing of the kind...]

Don't address me as Gladdy, you kewl-aid-guzzling chump.  ALL of our opinions are private, Jackuss Maximuss, from the long-dead ABL to you and me. He's been dead THIRTY YEARS.  Get over it!

I am not actually SV, but Your Ignorance just went ahead a presumed...shocking.

Please quote my words that claim NO Baptism is invalid? Your reading comprehension is lacking, but was likely affected by your undisciplined emotions as you read my words, the vast majority of which you clearly misunderstood.

If you ever want to have a calm, rational exchange, I am here.  Godspeed.

Re: What does Bishop Williamson say about the validity of Novus Ordo orders?
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2021, 09:26:11 AM »
LOL! So, according to Gladdy, "the combined value of the opinions of (+)ABL, (+)Fellay and (+)Schmidz [Fr. Schmidberger] (and (+)Williamson or whoever else you want to insert/add here) is...ZERO". Whereas your private judgment supposedly is infallibly binding and infinitely valuable? Typical sede-vacantist rubbish.

There have been docuмented Eucharistic Miracles in Masses offered by Priests ordained in the new rite. This fact alone shows that the new rite is not always invalid, contrary to sedevacantist polemicists.

Second, the study showed the new rite is derived from two Eastern Rites (specifically, the Coptic and the West Syrian), the validity of which is evidently not subject to doubt. Fr. Pierre Marie is careful to distinguish the prudence of the reform (was it a good idea?) with per se validity. You've made no reasonable rebuttals to the same, nor have you even given the slightest indication that you read the study and understood the reasons for its conclusions.

Yes, I agree and it is dogmatically true that the Church cannot give anything intrinsically evil; just as it is dogmatically true that St. Peter must have Perpetual Successors; that is for certain. Yet, there is also a human side to the issue, and the ideas of churchmen may not always be perfectly prudent; no rite approved by the Church can be sacrilegious or heretical. But different rites can be more or less good, according to the care taken, on the human side, in promulgating them.

Do you really not understood the difference between observing the entire ceremony of Baptism and saying only the words "I baptize you ...". You absurdly and arbitrarily deem the rite to be entirely invalid, yet claim others cannot legitimately deduce, by reason illumined by the Faith, that it is certainly valid but only objectively inferior, in conferring Grace.

SimpleMan, sure, there's no hurry. Take your time and go through the study at your leisure. To answer your question; yes, if the rite of ordination to the Priesthood were invalid, the new Bishops would not be true Bishops either. But most traditional Priests don't consider the new rite of ordination to be invalid. For some of the above reasons, I agree with that.

God Bless.
Says the poster who routinely uses his private judgment yet still professes submission to his pope.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: What does Bishop Williamson say about the validity of Novus Ordo orders?
« Reply #32 on: January 27, 2021, 09:27:56 AM »
LOL! So, according to Gladdy, "the combined value of the opinions of (+)ABL, (+)Fellay and (+)Schmidz [Fr. Schmidberger] (and (+)Williamson or whoever else you want to insert/add here) is...ZERO". Whereas your private judgment supposedly is infallibly binding and infinitely valuable? Typical sede-vacantist rubbish.

There have been docuмented Eucharistic Miracles in Masses offered by Priests ordained in the new rite. This fact alone shows that the new rite is not always invalid, contrary to sedevacantist polemicists.

Nah, the opinions of those former were clearly influenced by political considerations.  So, for instance, +Lefebvre considered them doubtful ... until such a time as he decided that he was inclined toward negotiations with Rome.  +Fellay and +Schmid were always politicians first, begged the question, and then came up with reasons for it after the fact.  +Williamson has always focused on the subjective (intention) aspect of things ... which is ironic since he's the biggest enemy of subjectivism on paper.

These purported Eucharistic Miracles mean absolutely nothing, as they can easily be simulated by the devil.  You've always been a big apparitionist, with an itchy ear to follow any and all private revelation.  But that's not the Church's attitude, which examines apparitions based on their theology rather than draw theological conclusion from apparitions.  You have yet to address your contradiction were you were promoting a certain Exorcism as evidence that the SSPX had it right, but then ignored the fact that the same apparition referred to JP2 as an illegitimate Antipope.

Re: What does Bishop Williamson say about the validity of Novus Ordo orders?
« Reply #33 on: January 27, 2021, 09:31:13 AM »
Don't address me as Gladdy, you kewl-aid-guzzling chump.  ALL of our opinions are private, Jackuss Maximuss, from the long-dead ABL to you and me. He's been dead THIRTY YEARS.  Get over it!

I am not actually SV, but Your Ignorance just went ahead a presumed...shocking.

Please quote my words that claim NO Baptism is invalid? Your reading comprehension is lacking, but was likely affected by your undisciplined emotions as you read my words, the vast majority of which you clearly misunderstood.

If you ever want to have a calm, rational exchange, I am here.  Godspeed.
What is your position then?

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: What does Bishop Williamson say about the validity of Novus Ordo orders?
« Reply #34 on: January 27, 2021, 09:33:21 AM »
One of my biggest concerns about the Rite of Ordination is that they ONLY removed the "ut".  There was absolutely ZERO REASON to justify such a minute change.  If the removal of "ut" did not change the sense/meaning of the sentence, then why do it at all? 

No, this was clearly done on purpose to subtly invalidate the Rite of Ordination by the same enemy infiltrators and imposters who have brought us the rest of the Vatican II and Novus Ordo abominations.

No, the ut is very significant.  One of the things that's essential for the validity of a Sacramental form is to signify the EFFECT of the Sacrament.  "ut" clearly indicates that what follows is the EFFECT of what came before, i.e. that it's the effect of the Sacrament.  When you remove the "ut," you're adding another imprecation but not linking it directly as an effect of the former.

Removal of the "ut" is incredibly significant and there was no other reason to do it other than with the malicious intent to invalidate the Sacrament.

You'll see what these enemies of the Church did.  They first invalidated the Mass itself by vitiating the form of consecration "for you and for all".  They needed to do that right away since there were many pre-V2-ordained priests still out there offering the Mass.  Once most of them had died out, you'll notice that they magically reverted back to "for you and for many".  By that time the priests themselves were nearly all invalid, so no more need to invalidate the Mass.