Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Poll

The New Mass is ...

Certainly Invalid
2 (6.9%)
Positively Doubtful
9 (31%)
Valid but Heretical
1 (3.4%)
Valid but Lacks Grace
2 (6.9%)
Valid but Inferior
9 (31%)
Other (Please explain)
6 (20.7%)
None of the above
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Author Topic: What do you believe about the New Mass?  (Read 2019 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: What do you believe about the New Mass?
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2020, 04:55:54 PM »

I'm guessing Struthio received a "thumbs down" because he posted an uncomfortable truth and many people simply cannot abide such truths.  The G.I.R.M. was condemned at Trent hundreds of years before its publication and those who accept it have already been anathemtized.

I am not Struthio's down-thumber, nor do I know what annoyed the person who is. Even so, the relationship between Trent's canon 9 and para 32 of GIRM appears to be misunderstood, if not by Struthio himself in his comment then surely by others who read more into it than is there.

That is to say, there is no ipso facto contradiction between the two citations. What is anathematized is the condemnation of the low tone, not its outright but condemnation-free replacement by the interminable yackety-yack that is as conceptually central to the New Order of Mass as it is alien to the True Mass. Indeed, I have no doubt that the lawyerly authors of GIRM knew precisely what objections might be raised and who might raise them as they went methodically about the business of making a revolution while pretending that they were doing no such thing.

You might well think (I certainly do) that in actual practice this distinction is an exercise in hair-splitting. Yet splitting hairs is a critical part of what laws and lawyers do as a matter of course. As this is a situation that will outlive us all, learning how to live with it—and how to prosper from it when circuмstances permit—is the best of several unattractive alternatives.

For the record, I think the new mass is valid but not licit—in other words,I agree with the original and long-held position of the SSPX.

Re: What do you believe about the New Mass?
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2020, 04:57:55 PM »

I didn't downvote him, but he's wrong. Look at the quote again:
One is anathematised if they teach that the Tridentine Rite ought to have been condemned for the pronunciation of words in a low tone, or if they teach that it's wrong to say the Mass in Latin.

The Novus Ordo not using a low tone is NOT a condemnation of the Tridentine Rite for using one, nor is the Novus Ordo being generally celebrated in the vernacular a condemnation of saying the Mass in Latin. Indeed, Novus Ordo Latin Masses do exist.

I posted my own comment on this matter before I saw forlorn's. As is plain, I agree with his analysis in all respects.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: What do you believe about the New Mass?
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2020, 05:31:40 PM »
I agree that the NOM is the abomination of desolation.  I also believe that the whore of Babylon is none other than the Conciliar Church.

Re: What do you believe about the New Mass?
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2020, 06:29:09 PM »
I hold that those vernacular translations where they changed the words of consecration of the wine to "for all" are certainly invalid ... based on the clear teaching of St. Pius V in the Roman Missal.

Of course, now that they have had generations of doubtfully valid priests, and there are very few left who are certainly valid, they suddenly change the words back ... as if it doesn't matter anymore whether the form is valid, since most of the priests are invalid.

If a valid priest were to use the first "Anaphora" (aka Canon), it's almost entirely the Tridentine Canon, and therefore seems likely to be valid.
That 'for all' originated in vernacular translations of the 'transitional' missal, where the Canon got a translation 'graced' with the scholarly fancies of the time like how supposedly Hebrew did not distinguish 'for all' and 'for many' which is just false. 'For many' was a character formula with the Essenes, for example. Most importantly, Pope St Pius V codified the Missal containing those words, but it was the words used from the beginning, as best we know. 'For all' is a sixties fraud.

If a priest, leaving aside additional rambling, reads the words before him, and doesn't engage in ideological editing like the 'Association of Catholic Priests' a New Order of Mass is valid. However, it lies in the context of a sermon espousing indifferentism, even heresy. It is the sort of thing that evokes anger, but the Conciliar priest often cannot help it. He got no formation worth talking about, and often just dodging predators and weirdos engaged all the part of his mind not fried by whatever form of Nouvelle Théologie taught to him.
Valid, but it's all a horror show I try avoid.

Re: What do you believe about the New Mass?
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2020, 07:27:15 PM »
The Novus Ordo not using a low tone is NOT a condemnation of the Tridentine Rite for using one

Whether or not what you say is true, the GENERAL INSTRUCTION OF THE ROMAN MISSAL, INSTITUTIO GENERALIS MISSALIS ROMANI saying that "the nature of the “presidential” texts demands that they be spoken in a loud and clear voice" is such a condemnation.

Consequently, to not speak them "in a loud and clear voice" is to act against the nature of these texts. Now, God has a divine right to be worshipped by men in the way he asked for. The General Instruction calls the praxis of all times at least grave liturgical abuse. And on the other hand, as TKGS has pointed out, the General Instruction was condemned several hundred years before the ink was wasted.