Lots of things can happen in 10 days.  Who says the canonization will occur?  I'm no prophet. Perhaps there will be a better sign than the fact it occurs.  Might be a sign when it does not occur.

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I would like to take this opportunity to say thank you to everyone on CI for being such a fun group and I've really had a nice time posting here and reading all these great threads and stuff.  

Any day now, I'm inclined to think, I won't be able to post anymore, so I wanted to say "Goodbye" before it's too late.  

You see, the thing that's about to happen in Rome on April 27th, Quasimodo Sunday (from whence the Hunchback of Notre Dame got his name), is a thing that by all reasonable estimates is utterly abominable to God, the abomination of desolation, standing in the holy place (he that readeth let him understand).  

Therefore, it's not outside the realm of possibility that God will intervene to stop it from happening, and one of the things He could do is to simply end the world, for example.  But even if He intercedes in some other way, the effect could well be that I won't be able to post anymore, so,
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Lots of things can happen in 10 days.  Who says the canonization will occur?  I'm no prophet. Perhaps there will be a better sign than the fact it occurs.  Might be a sign when it does not occur.

Therefore, it's not outside the realm of possibility that God will intervene to stop it from happening, and one of the things He could do is to simply end the world, for example.  But even if He intercedes in some other way, the effect could well be that I won't be able to post anymore, so,

I am also of the mindset that God will not permit this to occur, at least that is my fervent hope. But if He does permit it, it will not change anything for me, nor should it change anything for any faithful Catholic who knows what is going on.

It's funny Neil that you bring up the end of the world, because back in the 60s and 70s when the crisis was only in it's infancy, many people back then thought the end of the world, really and literally, was upon us at that time too.

In a week or so, two public enemies of Holy Mother the Church are scheduled to be proclaimed saints by the smiling pope - and we do not understand how that can be possible. Well, the faithful Catholics of the 60s and 70s were in the same boat as far as the "not understanding" part of this goes - but while they did not understand how such a revolution within the Church was possible, they understood it was wrong, they rejected the changes and many of them  persevered in and kept the faith even while the whole rest of the world who accepted the changes, lost it.

If God permits this, it would seem the reason is to further separate the wheat from the chaff - and only God knows how many more times He will permit other future events to accomplish the same thing until finally the time comes when there are no goats at all mixed in with the sheep.

By now, we *should* understand that whatever happens in the conciliar church, happens for one reason and one reason only - namely, the complete and total annihilation of the Church and faith. As such, the audacity of the coming canonizations will certainly deceive many who are of the faith into losing the faith, this is no accident and we who understand these things must  not let this event decide our fate.  

And having struck at this root of immortality, they proceed to disseminate poison through the whole tree, so that there is no part of Catholic truth from which they hold their hand, none that they do not strive to corrupt. Further, none is more skilful, none more astute than they, in the employment of a thousand noxious arts; for they double the parts of rationalist and Catholic, and this so craftily that they easily lead the unwary into error; and since audacity is their chief characteristic, there is no conclusion of any kind from which they shrink or which they do not thrust forward with pertinacity and assurance. To this must be added the fact, which indeed is well calculated to deceive souls......

This upcoming event is *primarily* all about deceiving those souls who still have the faith into losing the faith - that is what this is all about and we need to always keep that in the front of our minds. We do not *need* to understand how this event can happen, if it's infallible, the pope's not the pope, &etc., we do need to understand *why* it is happening and know that only evil will come of it and to remain on our guard so that whatever evil comes to us from it, that we continue our quest to persevere in and grow in the faith regardless of the enemy's deceitful plans going on around us.

Better to admit we simply do not understand how it is possible for a pope to canonize two notorious enemies of the Church, just as we could not understand in the 60s and 70s how the whole V2 revolution was able to happen at the hands of the magisterium. *For now*, suffice to understand that God is using it to separate the sheep from the goats and that through it all, we need to be one of the faithful sheep no matter what.

Personally, I do not buy into the whole SSPX explanation, in fact, I don't even understand their explanation, it seems more like double talk than anything else to me.

Don't be deceived by signs and wonders designed to deceive even the elect. Keep the faith no matter what happens.






 




   



 











   

Quote from: Stubborn

Personally, I do not buy into the whole SSPX explanation, in fact, I don't even understand their explanation, it seems more like double talk than anything else to me.

This is probably the biggest reason why I foresee many R&R turning to sedevacantism after the canonizations. The sense of the faithful going back centuries is that canonizations, when performed by the Pope, invoke the Church's infallibility. To say that Francis is a valid pope but canonized his predecessors invalidity requires too much explanation and introduction of novel speculation for the average Catholic.

That, and I really have not seen a solid or convincing R&R response to sedes over the issue.

So you do not agree that canonizations were infallible because of the prudential processes put in place to investigate sanctity?

If not, what was the point of the processes in the first place, if not to establish the sanctity of the deceased?

On the other hand, if these processes have been dispensed, are we claiming that the pope is granted infused knowledge to know who is in heaven?

It would be the first time I have heard that argument made.

Yet that seems to be the argument of the sedes who want to claim that if the pope says so, it must be true, or he is no pope, since there would be no other way for him to arrive at this knowledge.

For the sedes to argue the process is irrelevent to the legitimacy of the declaration is ridiculous.

The SSPX position is the only reasonable one I have read.

Quote from: SeanJohnson

So you do not agree that canonizations were infallible because of the prudential processes put in place to investigate sanctity?

No, I do not agree that the prudential processes are infallible, only the outcome once proclaimed by the Roman Pontiff.

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If not, what was the point of the processes in the first place, if not to establish the sanctity of the deceased?

Prudence.

But even here, there were often exceptions to a process when someone was simply known to be a saint and declared such. A good example--surprisingly given that he was the adopted father of Our Lord--is St. Joseph.

Unlike the Blessed Mother, the Apostles, early popes and martyrs, St Joseph is not really acknowledged as a saint in the early Church, but is treated more as the last of Old Covenant prophets and patriarchs. I believe this is why his name did not appear in the Roman canon until the 20th Century. It is also why there are very few traditional icons to St Joseph.

However, people simply knew that the foster father of Our Lord was a saint, and over centuries devotion to him grew until the Church hierarchy was forced to acknowledge his sainthood without him ever having been canonized formally.  

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On the other hand, if these processes have been dispensed, are we claiming that the pope is granted infused knowledge to know who is in heaven?

The processes have not been dispensed. Only certain parts, just as only certain parts have been simplified. But the process is still there.

If he is a true pope (as I believe Francis is), and if Bl John Paul II is not a saint, then obviously the Holy Spirit will intervene in the next week to stop the process.

Do you believe there is no amount or level of procedural irregularity that could suffice to invalidate a canonization?

E.g., Those claiming to have experienced miracles retracting their stories; alleged miracles disputed by medical authorities as having occurred by natural means; alleged cures falling back into relapse; language in the declaration itself seeming to be of a non-binding nature (i.e., permissive rather than declaratory; etc.

Do you believe there is no amount or level of procedural irregularity that could suffice to invalidate a canonization?

E.g., Those claiming to have experienced miracles retracting their stories; alleged miracles disputed by medical authorities as having occurred by natural means; alleged cures falling back into relapse; language in the declaration itself seeming to be of a non-binding nature (i.e., permissive rather than declaratory; etc.

What I believe in, Sean, is the Holy Ghost. That is, as the Third Divine Person of the Most Holy Trinity, ultimately He will ensure the integrity of the outcome.

Two examples. For centuries, the Church's brightest theologians presented numerous theological reasons why St Joseph was not a saint under the New Covenant, but a prophet and patriarch under the Old. However, the average lay faithful felt differently, and through them the Holy Ghost overcame the opinions of some the Church's brightest and most renown theologians.

Another example is Mama Maurita, the mother of Maciel Marciel. How much time, money and resources did Legion of Christ and Regnum Christi supporters (and their various sub-organizations) invest in promoting her cause for canonization? Which all came to naught when Maciel Marciel was exposed as a fraud on par with Rasputin. Thus the best efforts of men were not able to overcome what appears to have been the intervention of the Holy Ghost.

In short, the canonization process is not magic or sorcery. It is not an attempt upon man's part to bind preternatural powers normally beyond his control. Rather, canonization invokes the Holy Ghost, who would not allow the Church to proceed with the process if the outcome were false.  

Quote from: SeanJohnson

From what I have gathered on this thread, both Conciliarists and sedevacantists believe that canonizations are either arbitrary declarations which become infallible after the fact (there being no sufficient prudential process in place to reach or justify moral certitude in the matter), or, that the Pope is granted infused knowledge to know who is in heaven?

If the "infused knowledge" strawman gives you some comfort, allowing you to cling to your R&R assumptions a bit longer, then I suppose this will be your argument come April 27.

But allow me to ask you one question: Are you proposing this argument to convince others who may lean conciliarist or sede after Apr 27, or are you proposing it as a personal life buoy for your own R&R position?

I am proposing it because it seems to be a presumption close to blasphemy to count on the assistance of the Holy Ghost to intervene in a miraculous manner to pre-empt a canonization in which the prudential investigations and criteria the Church would normally implement to arrive at moral certitude regarding the sanctity and virtue of a candidate have been significantly tampered with, such that barring private revelation or infused knowledge, there is no reasonable grounds to believe in the legitimacy and infallibility of the canonization.