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Offline poche

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Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2019, 12:26:37 AM »
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  • One benefit would be in Perfectae Caritatis. Perfectae Caritatis called upon all of the religious communities to follow the original charism of the foundation of their communities. In the case of the SSPX and other similar communities the fact that the TLM  is an important part of their charism then any attempt to take it away would be contrary not just to the spirit of Vatican II, but also to the explicit instructions of the document itself.   

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #31 on: February 05, 2019, 01:28:55 PM »
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  • One benefit would be in Perfectae Caritatis. Perfectae Caritatis called upon all of the religious communities to follow the original charism of the foundation of their communities. In the case of the SSPX and other similar communities the fact that the TLM  is an important part of their charism then any attempt to take it away would be contrary not just to the spirit of Vatican II, but also to the explicit instructions of the document itself.  
    However, PCurges them to adjust their way of life to modern needs” (§ 10), “to the needs of our time” (§ 18), “to the requirements of time and…to modern conditions” (§ 20) “Therefore let constitutions…be suitably re-edited and…adapted to the Decrees of this sacred Synod.” (§ 3). (source)
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    Offline poche

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #32 on: February 05, 2019, 11:10:52 PM »
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  • However, PCurges them to adjust their way of life to modern needs” (§ 10), “to the needs of our time” (§ 18), “to the requirements of time and…to modern conditions” (§ 20) “Therefore let constitutions…be suitably re-edited and…adapted to the Decrees of this sacred Synod.” (§ 3). (source)
    Yes, but unlike other communities, the SSPX, FSSP, and some other communities have as an important part of their charism the TLM. Adaptations and 're-editing' means that tehy can use the telephone every now and then. They can go online and communicate with other people in order to fulfill their mission of bringing Catholic Tradition to the rest of the world.  

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #33 on: February 09, 2019, 08:50:45 PM »
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  • Exposure to more of Scripture at Mass.

    But strictly speaking that’s not a “doctrinal” development.

    I’m not aware of any good “doctrinal” developments, much less a plurality that could encompass a “best.”
    I believe in the Apostolic Catholic Church. I reject and denounce the malfeasant or “dysfunctional papal or episcopal Newchurch.” - Father Paul Trinchard

    Offline XavierSem

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #34 on: February 14, 2019, 03:06:42 AM »
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  • That means the Novus Ordo, SSPX, and all of the major sede groups for they all agree that Pagans, Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists...…. can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards. The individual priests might not all believe it, but it is taught to them as "dogma" in their seminaries, and if they question it, they get the boot.
    Try to be a little more fair. First, His Excellency Bp. Fellay doesn't believe what you seem to think H.E. believes, "It is a terrible document, completely heretical, which claims that the Jews can be saved without coming through Our Lord (par. 36). Exactly the opposite of what Sacred Scripture teaches us, along with the first Pope himself, Saint Peter, who says this to the Jews: “There is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). In other words, there is no other means of being saved except through Our Lord. And here Cardinal Koch thinks that you can make a statement saying the contrary. But, he tells us in black and white (in the Preface): “This is not doctrinal teaching.” http://sspx.org/en/can-pastoral-council-be-debatable

    Second, because Vatican II is non-infallible and pastoral - unlike all other previous Ecumenical Councils - it can be questioned further, "The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of superdogma which takes away the importance of all the rest." (Pope Benedict XVI) http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2009/02/vatican-ii-was-just-pastoral-according.html

    Third, the salvation question has become very confused.  I'm with St. Thomas and St. Augustine. God will certainly bring a pagan who seeks the truth to Christian Faith, and probably bring one who desires Holy Baptism to the Sacrament itself which will save him.

    Fourth, as pointed out in the first link, with regard to this thread topic, "In the Council, surely, we find repeated a great number of dogmas; it says that there is the Holy Trinity, that Our Lord Jesus is God, it says all that! They even say, in the Council, that in order to be saved, one must go through Our Lord. That is said in the Council. There was even someone who had fun demonstrating that we were more faithful to the Council than the Jesuits." CCC 848, citing Ad Gentes, and CCC 161, citing Mk 16:16 and Dei Filius from Vatican I, seems to agree with this. But no one is sure - and this is part of the problem - because many like Barron and others openly teach even atheists can be saved as atheists. Such persons, as ABL used to say, should be reduced to perpetual silence.

    Fifth, a proverbial 95% in V2 and the CCC can be read in light of Tradition. The main issue in Vatican II was not declared - a dogmatic definition of the Kingship of Christ and the necessity of explicit faith in Him for salvation, the universal Mediation of our Immaculate Mother as Co-Redemptrix with Christ, a dogmatic condemnation of Communism, condemnation of impure publications and the "free love" movement that was beginning, directions to all Catholic states to explicitly honor the Twin Hearts in their constitutions etc.
    If those things had been done, the Council would borne good fruit. They remain to be done and must necessarily be done in future.

    And the TLM of course should have been preserved unchanged as the only Mass of the Latin/Roman Rite. It must be restored now.
    Do make Acts of Consecration to the Twin Hearts, Spiritual Offerings of the Precious Blood of Jesus in Union with the Holy Mass, like in St. Gertrude's Chaplet, along with Spiritual Communions at least every hour. The Saints say Spiritual Communions are a way to quickly advance to Union with God.


    Offline poche

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #35 on: February 15, 2019, 12:18:43 AM »
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  • Try to be a little more fair. First, His Excellency Bp. Fellay doesn't believe what you seem to think H.E. believes, "It is a terrible document, completely heretical, which claims that the Jews can be saved without coming through Our Lord (par. 36). Exactly the opposite of what Sacred Scripture teaches us, along with the first Pope himself, Saint Peter, who says this to the Jews: “There is no other name under heaven given to men, whereby we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). In other words, there is no other means of being saved except through Our Lord. And here Cardinal Koch thinks that you can make a statement saying the contrary. But, he tells us in black and white (in the Preface): “This is not doctrinal teaching.” http://sspx.org/en/can-pastoral-council-be-debatable

    Second, because Vatican II is non-infallible and pastoral - unlike all other previous Ecumenical Councils - it can be questioned further, "The truth is that this particular council defined no dogma at all, and deliberately chose to remain on a modest level, as a merely pastoral council; and yet many treat it as though it had made itself into a sort of superdogma which takes away the importance of all the rest." (Pope Benedict XVI) http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2009/02/vatican-ii-was-just-pastoral-according.html

    Third, the salvation question has become very confused.  I'm with St. Thomas and St. Augustine. God will certainly bring a pagan who seeks the truth to Christian Faith, and probably bring one who desires Holy Baptism to the Sacrament itself which will save him.

    Fourth, as pointed out in the first link, with regard to this thread topic, "In the Council, surely, we find repeated a great number of dogmas; it says that there is the Holy Trinity, that Our Lord Jesus is God, it says all that! They even say, in the Council, that in order to be saved, one must go through Our Lord. That is said in the Council. There was even someone who had fun demonstrating that we were more faithful to the Council than the Jesuits." CCC 848, citing Ad Gentes, and CCC 161, citing Mk 16:16 and Dei Filius from Vatican I, seems to agree with this. But no one is sure - and this is part of the problem - because many like Barron and others openly teach even atheists can be saved as atheists. Such persons, as ABL used to say, should be reduced to perpetual silence.

    Fifth, a proverbial 95% in V2 and the CCC can be read in light of Tradition. The main issue in Vatican II was not declared - a dogmatic definition of the Kingship of Christ and the necessity of explicit faith in Him for salvation, the universal Mediation of our Immaculate Mother as Co-Redemptrix with Christ, a dogmatic condemnation of Communism, condemnation of impure publications and the "free love" movement that was beginning, directions to all Catholic states to explicitly honor the Twin Hearts in their constitutions etc.
    If those things had been done, the Council would borne good fruit. They remain to be done and must necessarily be done in future.

    And the TLM of course should have been preserved unchanged as the only Mass of the Latin/Roman Rite. It must be restored now.
    With the promulgation of Summorum Pontificem this is a reality.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #36 on: February 15, 2019, 08:21:39 AM »
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  • Whatever truth the V2 documents proclaimed, they did so half-heartedly and, in turn, included a liberal slant to it, so that a contrary position could be inferred by liberals.  There is nothing clear, unambiguous or definite about the V2 documents.  There are multiple other councils, books which explain V2's topics infinitely better.  V2 is as useful to a catholic as a 1st grade math book is to a scientist. 

    Offline poche

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #37 on: February 15, 2019, 10:47:03 PM »
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  • From one of the documents of Vatican II;

    Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life - that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God. This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God's gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem.

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html


    Offline Geremia

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    Universal Call to Holiness
    « Reply #38 on: February 18, 2019, 12:59:29 PM »
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  • LG's "universal call to holiness" ch. 5, correctly interpreted in the non-ecumaniacal sense, settled a debate of whether "the infused contemplation of the mysteries of faith and the union with God which results therefrom [is] an intrinsically extraordinary grace, or is it, on the contrary, in the normal way of sanctity" (cf. ch. 6 of Christian Perfection & Contemplation by Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange, O.P.).

    For example:
    Quote from: LG
    all the faithful of Christ of whatever rank or status, are called to the fullness of the Christian life and to the perfection of charity […] all the faithful of Christ are invited to strive for the holiness and perfection of their own proper state
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