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Author Topic: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?  (Read 2695 times)

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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2019, 03:15:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on February 02, 2019, 02:14:20 PM
    For example, it did mention Mary more than any other council and said Gregorian chant should be given pride of place in the liturgy.
    Was Bp. Fellay wrong in saying that 95% of the council is Catholic/orthodox?
    Since when is "Gregorian chant" a doctrinal issue?  And since when does Modernist writings not include orthodox and heretical things at the same time?

    Geremia, you seem to have become another Francis and Vatican II defender.  Wouldn't you be more at home at Catholic "Answers"?
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #16 on: February 02, 2019, 04:38:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on February 02, 2019, 02:14:20 PM
    Was Bp. Fellay wrong in saying that 95% of the council is Catholic/orthodox?
    Rat poison is 99% nutritious food. 
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    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline poche

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #17 on: February 03, 2019, 12:52:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 02, 2019, 02:27:19 PM
    Gregorian chant is an excellent example of the problem.  Look at Sacrosanctum Concilium 116:

    The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

    But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

    The first half sounds great (although even it is weakened by the phrase "other things being equal").  But then the second half undermines it to a point that people can do the opposite.  We are left with the vague expression "accord with the spirit of the liturgical action".  In effect, the endorsement of Gregorian chant is permission to do just about anything.
    Still, this gives proof to the lie that Vatican II did away with the Latin liturgy.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #18 on: February 03, 2019, 05:48:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: poche on February 03, 2019, 12:52:54 AM
    Still, this gives proof to the lie that Vatican II did away with the Latin liturgy.
    It's not a lie. The very same passage that talks about giving pride of place to Gregorian chant can also be used justify practically any music.  Earlier in the same docuмent, there is permission to use more vernacular in the liturgy at the discretion of the bishops. It did not say that Latin must be removed but nevertheless made it possible for vernacular to become the norm.

    The Vatican II docuмents are open to widely different interpretations. I suspect that many, maybe most, of the Council Fathers who signed them believed they were agreeing to something orthodox.  They could not have foreseen what happened.

    There was something called "the Spirit of Vatican II" which was a widespread movement to interpret and implement the docuмents in the most liberal way possible, even to the point of heresy. This "Spirit" dominated the Church hierarchy in the decades immediately after the Council, even more than it does now. (Although Francis has been changing that.)

    This, by the way, is the historical context of the founding of the SSPX in which one must understand the actions of Archbishop Lefebvre. When I encounter the sort of people who claim he was schismatic, I sometimes try to explain this background to them.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #19 on: February 03, 2019, 08:57:10 AM »
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    • Well, the term "sacred" music was a technical term clearly defined by Pope St. Pius X and excluded the types of musical aberrations which made their way into the Novus Ordo.  I have no problem with this passage at all.  Most of the liturgical experimentation and abuses came in the aftermath of Vatican II and were not directly put into motion by anything in Vatican II.

    What this passage is saying is that --

    1) Chant is #1 in the Church
    2) Other forms of SACRED music (a reference to things like polyphony) may also be used.

    Both these were taught by St. Pius X.  What this is saying is that Chant has pride of place over polyphony (et al.) ... not that guitar music is now OK.  St. Pius X clearly excluded in detail types of music that cannot be considered "sacred" music.
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #20 on: February 03, 2019, 10:08:27 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 03, 2019, 08:57:10 AM
    Well, the term "sacred" music was a technical term clearly defined by Pope St. Pius X and excluded the types of musical aberrations which made their way into the Novus Ordo.  I have no problem with this passage at all.  Most of the liturgical experimentation and abuses came in the aftermath of Vatican II and were not directly put into motion by anything in Vatican II.

    What this passage is saying is that --

    1) Chant is #1 in the Church
    2) Other forms of SACRED music (a reference to things like polyphony) may also be used.

    Both these were taught by St. Pius X.  What this is saying is that Chant has pride of place over polyphony (et al.) ... not that guitar music is now OK.  St. Pius X clearly excluded in detail types of music that cannot be considered "sacred" music.

    This is the correct interpretation and probably the intent of most Council Fathers.  But the "Spirit of Vatican II" involves a "hermeneutic of discontinuity" that ignores the teaching of St. Pius X.  Rather than understanding the definition of sacred music according to previous teaching, these people take it in isolation, using a subjective, ahistorical definition.  Such people are convinced that Vatican II says that guitar music is OK, among a great many other abuses and heresies.

    I daresay it is true that most, if not all, of Vatican II is orthodox when interpreted in light of tradition.  It is more of a problem that it was not interpreted this way.  And sometimes the docuмents themselves seemed to foster these bad interpretations. (Dignitatis Humanae may be an example.)
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #21 on: February 03, 2019, 03:26:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 03, 2019, 08:57:10 AM
    What this passage is saying is that --

    1) Chant is #1 in the Church
    2) Other forms of SACRED music (a reference to things like polyphony) may also be used.

    Both these were taught by St. Pius X.  What this is saying is that Chant has pride of place over polyphony (et al.) ... not that guitar music is now OK.  St. Pius X clearly excluded in detail types of music that cannot be considered "sacred" music.
    It seems that virtually all of the Conciliar bishops in the world since Vatican 2 completely disagree with your interpretation.  If they are the Catholic Church, then their interpretation most definitely trumps yours.  
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #22 on: February 03, 2019, 06:33:38 PM »
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    • That's not my interpretation.  Sacred music was defined by St. Pius X.  Unfortunately, many Traditional Catholics are ignorant of the term.

    Bishops weren't "interpreting" anything ... they just did what they wanted to while using Vatican II as their pretext.  They didn't even pretend to be doing any kind of "hermeneutic" when it came to their liturgical aberrations.  That "hermeneutic of continuity" expression was developed later by the more conservative bishops who kept clinging to their desire for Vatican II to be considered a legitimate Catholic Council.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #23 on: February 03, 2019, 06:54:45 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 03, 2019, 06:33:38 PM
    That's not my interpretation.  Sacred music was defined by St. Pius X.  Unfortunately, many Traditional Catholics are ignorant of the term.

    Bishops weren't "interpreting" anything ... they just did what they wanted to while using Vatican II as their pretext.  They didn't even pretend to be doing any kind of "hermeneutic" when it came to their liturgical aberrations.  That "hermeneutic of continuity" expression was developed later by the more conservative bishops who kept clinging to their desire for Vatican II to be considered a legitimate Catholic Council.
    Why should anyone believe you over all of the bishops?
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    Offline poche

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #24 on: February 03, 2019, 11:12:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Jaynek on February 03, 2019, 05:48:07 AM
    It's not a lie. The very same passage that talks about giving pride of place to Gregorian chant can also be used justify practically any music.  Earlier in the same docuмent, there is permission to use more vernacular in the liturgy at the discretion of the bishops. It did not say that Latin must be removed but nevertheless made it possible for vernacular to become the norm.

    The Vatican II docuмents are open to widely different interpretations. I suspect that many, maybe most, of the Council Fathers who signed them believed they were agreeing to something orthodox.  They could not have foreseen what happened.

    There was something called "the Spirit of Vatican II" which was a widespread movement to interpret and implement the docuмents in the most liberal way possible, even to the point of heresy. This "Spirit" dominated the Church hierarchy in the decades immediately after the Council, even more than it does now. (Although Francis has been changing that.)

    This, by the way, is the historical context of the founding of the SSPX in which one must understand the actions of Archbishop Lefebvre. When I encounter the sort of people who claim he was schismatic, I sometimes try to explain this background to them.
    "Spirit of Vatican II' has become a synonym for 'do whatever' with no reference to what the docuмents have to say.   
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    Offline poche

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #25 on: February 03, 2019, 11:17:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on February 03, 2019, 03:26:34 PM
    It seems that virtually all of the Conciliar bishops in the world since Vatican 2 completely disagree with your interpretation.  If they are the Catholic Church, then their interpretation most definitely trumps yours.  
    They might change their minds if they bothered to read the docuмents. If they thought about it they might change their minds about what 'spirit of Vatican II' actually means.  
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #26 on: February 04, 2019, 05:47:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: poche on February 03, 2019, 11:17:39 PM
    They might change their minds if they bothered to read the docuмents. If they thought about it they might change their minds about what 'spirit of Vatican II' actually means.  
    You don't believe that the bishops have actually read any of the docuмents?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #27 on: February 04, 2019, 07:53:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: TKGS on February 04, 2019, 05:47:26 AM
    You don't believe that the bishops have actually read any of the docuмents?

    You know, I wouldn't be surprised if most of them haven't read them.  That's how little these guys care about theology anymore.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #28 on: February 04, 2019, 07:54:04 AM »
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    • This is not an "interpretation".  You clearly haven't studied enough theology to know the definition of SACRED music ... the term which has escaped many of you.
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    Offline TKGS

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #29 on: February 04, 2019, 08:06:39 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 04, 2019, 07:54:04 AM
    This is not an "interpretation".  You clearly haven't studied enough theology to know the definition of SACRED music ... the term which has escaped many of you.
    Actually, I agree with you.  You clearly haven't read many of my posts.

    The point is, if these men are bishops of the Catholic Church, you are wrong in assigning such definitions because the Teaching Church has, by her actions, demonstrated the true meaning of the Vatican 2 docuмents.  On the other hand, if these men are usurpers, they have no authority and their understanding of these principles have no validity.
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