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Offline Geremia

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What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
« on: January 31, 2019, 10:10:05 AM »
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  • Much has been discussed about the Modernism of Vatican II, but what's are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
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    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #1 on: January 31, 2019, 12:21:38 PM »
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  • The period at the end of the last sentence of the last document.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #2 on: January 31, 2019, 03:10:01 PM »
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  •  :jester:
    "...this See of Peter always remains unblemished by any error in accordance with the Divine Promise of Our Lord...." - Vatican I

    Offline Markus

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #3 on: February 01, 2019, 12:39:08 AM »
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  • I don't think any doctrine was well-developed at the Vatican II pseudo-council.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #4 on: February 01, 2019, 08:31:57 AM »
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  • There were some narrative passages that I think were very well done and edifying ... but these dealt with merely an explanation of established Church dogma.  Anything new introduced by Vatican II was problematic without exception.

    For those Traditional Catholics, however, who believe that infidels can be saved ... well, Vatican II does an admirable job of laying out the ecclesiology behind such positions; these Trad Catholics should consider the V2 "subsistence" ecclesiology to be both brilliant and sublime.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #5 on: February 01, 2019, 12:28:26 PM »
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  • Quote
    Much has been discussed about the Modernism of Vatican II, but what's are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    That's like asking which animal's shat smells the best! 

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #6 on: February 01, 2019, 01:05:34 PM »
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  • As an aside, I haven't read a lot of it. 

    But you can tell just by the implementation of it that something was off. If they meant something theologically sound, it was overshadowed by the aftermath — 50 years of crumbling parishes, sinking vocations, and bad, neo-Marxist theology. 

    I personally don't know if the NO is invalid or not; it's not something I feel personally qualified to give an answer on. 

    But it's a stretch to say that anything good came out of Vatican II.
    Tío Samuel, ven pa 'aca

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #7 on: February 01, 2019, 01:48:03 PM »
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  • For those Traditional Catholics, however, who believe that infidels can be saved ... well, Vatican II does an admirable job of laying out the ecclesiology behind such positions; these Trad Catholics should consider the V2 "subsistence" ecclesiology to be both brilliant and sublime.
    That means the Novus Ordo, SSPX, and all of the major sede groups for they all agree that Pagans, Jews, Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists...…. can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards. The individual priests might not all believe it, but it is taught to them as "dogma" in their seminaries, and if they question it, they get the boot.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #8 on: February 01, 2019, 04:03:50 PM »
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  • That's like asking which animal's shat smells the best!
    Tell me about it.  I can't believe that a Traditional Catholic asked this question.
    "...this See of Peter always remains unblemished by any error in accordance with the Divine Promise of Our Lord...." - Vatican I

    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #9 on: February 01, 2019, 04:07:34 PM »
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  • As an aside, I haven't read a lot of it.

    But you can tell just by the implementation of it that something was off. If they meant something theologically sound, it was overshadowed by the aftermath — 50 years of crumbling parishes, sinking vocations, and bad, neo-Marxist theology.
    I have read most, maybe all, of the documents.  It is a characteristic of pretty much all of them that they contain enough ambiguity to be easily interpreted in a heterodox way.  This is what made it possible for the implementation to be so horrible.  It is not really possible to talk about its "best doctrinal developments".  About the best that can be said that it is capable of being understood in an orthodox way by those who have the will to do so.  And even that is debatable.  

    As if this weren't bad enough, this sort of ambiguity continues throughout the subsequent Church documents, making it possible for Catholics to hold any number of heretical positions while claiming they have the approval of the Church. 

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #10 on: February 01, 2019, 07:30:52 PM »
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  • Much has been discussed about the Modernism of Vatican II, but what's are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    Can you give us a clue, Geremia?


    Offline Geremia

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #11 on: February 02, 2019, 02:13:18 PM »
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  • I can't believe that a Traditional Catholic asked this question.
    Tradition stopped in circa 1960?
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #12 on: February 02, 2019, 02:14:20 PM »
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  • Can you give us a clue, Geremia?
    For example, it did mention Mary more than any other council and said Gregorian chant should be given pride of place in the liturgy.
    Was Bp. Fellay wrong in saying that 95% of the council is Catholic/orthodox?
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #13 on: February 02, 2019, 02:27:19 PM »
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  • For example, it did mention Mary more than any other council and said Gregorian chant should be given pride of place in the liturgy.
    Was Bp. Fellay wrong in saying that 95% of the council is Catholic/orthodox?
    Gregorian chant is an excellent example of the problem.  Look at Sacrosanctum Concilium 116:

    The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

    But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.

    The first half sounds great (although even it is weakened by the phrase "other things being equal").  But then the second half undermines it to a point that people can do the opposite.  We are left with the vague expression "accord with the spirit of the liturgical action".  In effect, the endorsement of Gregorian chant is permission to do just about anything.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: What are Vatican II's best doctrinal developments?
    « Reply #14 on: February 02, 2019, 02:50:04 PM »
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  • For example, it did mention Mary more than any other council and said Gregorian chant should be given pride of place in the liturgy.
    Was Bp. Fellay wrong in saying that 95% of the council is Catholic/orthodox?
    Wasn't there a schema prepared specifically on Mary that was discarded?
    .
    I think that, if Bishop Fellay was right in his estimate of 95% "Catholic/orthodox", then that only goes to show that Vatican II is not a Council of the one Holy Catholic Apostolic Faith and it should be discarded. 95% Catholic is not Catholic at all.

     

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