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Author Topic: Were these popes antipopes?  (Read 994 times)

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Offline Mercyandjustice

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Were these popes antipopes?
« on: October 29, 2016, 04:16:56 PM »
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  • Pope St. Marcellinus offered incense to an idol, though he repented of it later. Was the chair vacant between the time he apostasized and repented?
    Pope St. Gregory XVII said in a letter to some muslim ruler that Christians and muslims worship the same god. Was he an antipope according to some sedes' standards? How is he a saint then?
    Pope St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII both did liturgical reforms. If Quo Primum was truly binding then does that mean that these popes were heretics?

    If a pope becomes a heretic, either publicly or privately, does he lose his office? Does he have to profess material "accidental" heresy or formal obstinate heresy in order to be severed from the Church? I'm not sure exactly  Pope Pius XII meant in his encyclical  Mystici Corporis:

    Quote
    For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy. Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins.


     ....or is he still a valid pope that,  though in the eyes of God he may lose membership from the church, is still the authority of the Church? Is it possible for a pope to become severed from the Church due to heresy, yet have his office remain valid (so that he can pronounce dogmas, canonize, etc)? Also, the First Vatican Council stated that it was impossible for a council to be set up to judge a pope, yet how did a council condemn Pope Honorius 1?

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    The sentence of the Apostolic See (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon. And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecuмenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman Pontif.”? Id, Ch. 3, sec. 8.



    And one FINAL question. What do you think of the idea that theres has never been a heretical pope? Some traditonal websites like NovusOrdoWatch and Our Lady of the Rosary Library( quoting from Micahel Davies) say that there never has been a pope whowas a heretic. Although history seems to contradict this assertion..

    Thank you. I am not looking for heated arguments by the way, JUST looking for your opinions. So please don't get carried away


    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Were these popes antipopes?
    « Reply #1 on: October 29, 2016, 08:15:59 PM »
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  • After subsequent research I decided to retract one thing  from my original post. According to Catholic encyclopedia, Pope St. Marcellunus' offering of incense was most likely a rumor that was thought by some to be true. And Popes. Pius X and Pius XII had full authority,as Roman Pontiffs, to do liturgical modifications or reforms. I'm still wondering about Pope St. Gregory VII though. According to One Source the letter is fake and he apparently couldn't find an actual source for the alleged letter:

    http://=http://www.geocities.ws/prakashjm45



    And also apparently St Robert bellarmine belived that there had never been a heretical pope, but that all the alleged heretical popes of the past weren't actually heretics in that thyey believed fully in some heresy,  but that they,  through their inaction like in the case of Honorius I, seemed like they believed in heresy..


    Offline Sbyvl

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    Were these popes antipopes?
    « Reply #2 on: October 29, 2016, 09:57:11 PM »
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  • If you can't find a source for your claim regarding St. Gregory VII, I for one have nothing to say about it, for claims presented without evidence are dismissed without evidence.

    There has never been a heretical pope.  The claim that there was has been used by Protestants and Gallicans to attack papal infallibility, and the Fathers of Vatican I systematically refuted every such charge raised.
    I apologize for all rude, calumnious, uncharitable, and unchristian posts I have made, and I retract them.

    Offline JezusDeKoning

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    Were these popes antipopes?
    « Reply #3 on: October 29, 2016, 10:51:15 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mercyandjustice
    Pope St. Marcellinus offered incense to an idol, though he repented of it later. Was the chair vacant between the time he apostasized and repented?
    Pope St. Gregory XVII said in a letter to some muslim ruler that Christians and muslims worship the same god. Was he an antipope according to some sedes' standards? How is he a saint then?
    Pope St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII both did liturgical reforms. If Quo Primum was truly binding then does that mean that these popes were heretics?

    If a pope becomes a heretic, either publicly or privately, does he lose his office? Does he have to profess material "accidental" heresy or formal obstinate heresy in order to be severed from the Church? I'm not sure exactly  Pope Pius XII meant in his encyclical  Mystici Corporis:

    Quote
    For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy. Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins.


     ....or is he still a valid pope that,  though in the eyes of God he may lose membership from the church, is still the authority of the Church? Is it possible for a pope to become severed from the Church due to heresy, yet have his office remain valid (so that he can pronounce dogmas, canonize, etc)? Also, the First Vatican Council stated that it was impossible for a council to be set up to judge a pope, yet how did a council condemn Pope Honorius 1?

    Quote

    The sentence of the Apostolic See (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon. And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecuмenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman Pontif.”? Id, Ch. 3, sec. 8.



    And one FINAL question. What do you think of the idea that theres has never been a heretical pope? Some traditonal websites like NovusOrdoWatch and Our Lady of the Rosary Library( quoting from Micahel Davies) say that there never has been a pope whowas a heretic. Although history seems to contradict this assertion..

    Thank you. I am not looking for heated arguments by the way, JUST looking for your opinions. So please don't get carried away


    Don't go any farther down this road, please. You'll end up like another Richard Ibranyi if you do.
    Remember O most gracious Virgin Mary...

    Offline Mercyandjustice

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    Were these popes antipopes?
    « Reply #4 on: October 30, 2016, 01:12:31 AM »
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  • Quote from: JezusDeKoning
    Quote from: Mercyandjustice
    Pope St. Marcellinus offered incense to an idol, though he repented of it later. Was the chair vacant between the time he apostasized and repented?
    Pope St. Gregory XVII said in a letter to some muslim ruler that Christians and muslims worship the same god. Was he an antipope according to some sedes' standards? How is he a saint then?
    Pope St. Pius X and Pope Pius XII both did liturgical reforms. If Quo Primum was truly binding then does that mean that these popes were heretics?

    If a pope becomes a heretic, either publicly or privately, does he lose his office? Does he have to profess material "accidental" heresy or formal obstinate heresy in order to be severed from the Church? I'm not sure exactly  Pope Pius XII meant in his encyclical  Mystici Corporis:

    Quote
    For not every sin, however grave it may be, is such as of its own nature to sever a man from the Body of the Church, as does schism or heresy or apostasy. Men may lose charity and divine grace through sin, thus becoming incapable of supernatural merit, and yet not be deprived of all life if they hold fast to faith and Christian hope, and if, illumined from above, they are spurred on by the interior promptings of the Holy Spirit to salutary fear and are moved to prayer and penance for their sins.


     ....or is he still a valid pope that,  though in the eyes of God he may lose membership from the church, is still the authority of the Church? Is it possible for a pope to become severed from the Church due to heresy, yet have his office remain valid (so that he can pronounce dogmas, canonize, etc)? Also, the First Vatican Council stated that it was impossible for a council to be set up to judge a pope, yet how did a council condemn Pope Honorius 1?

    Quote

    The sentence of the Apostolic See (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon. And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecuмenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman Pontif.”? Id, Ch. 3, sec. 8.



    And one FINAL question. What do you think of the idea that theres has never been a heretical pope? Some traditonal websites like NovusOrdoWatch and Our Lady of the Rosary Library( quoting from Micahel Davies) say that there never has been a pope whowas a heretic. Although history seems to contradict this assertion..

    Thank you. I am not looking for heated arguments by the way, JUST looking for your opinions. So please don't get carried away


    Don't go any farther down this road, please. You'll end up like another Richard Ibranyi if you do.


    God forbid! His beliefs are crazy and irrational. I went on his website and saw photos of his little cult and was surprised. He had images of our Lady of Grace, Guadalupe. The Sacred and Immaculate hearts, St Joseph statue, etc. If he believes that the Church ceased to exist in the 1100s, then why does he have images of latter day devotions? By my original post I was  just trying to figure out if a pope can be a heretic, and if so to what extent. Right now I don't think a pope can be a heretic...