Okay, please fill me in on this.  

Vatican II.  No good, as we know.  E. Michael Jones is stating that the docuмents were fine, but it was what was done at the Council that screwed everything up.  

I've heard the same thing from Michael Voris.  

But...I mean, that'd be like saying that the latest screeds coming out of FrancisChurch read just fine, and that it's the priests' evil intentions that go beyond the docuмents that are wrong--not the docuмents.  I mean...E. Michael Jones in one breath says that the Society was silly for thinking there was an emergency.  And in another breath--nay, the entire book's subject--is about the Church's emergency.

So, could someone answer me this question or refer me to somewhere?  Were the pre-Council docuмents fine?  Or were they also a part of the problem?

Consider the sources.

The Vatican 2 docuмents contain outright heresies, errors, and ambiguities.  They provide for contradictions.  For example, one docuмent states clearly that Latin is to be retained in the liturgy but then allows for the vernacular to be used when it is useful--which is like adding a "but" to a sentence.  Adding a "but" essentially denies or suppresses everything said prior--which is what these docuмents do.

Is everything contained in the docuмents evil?  Of course not.  There is much that is faithful to the Catholic faith in them, but (see what I mean?) what good is a teaching docuмent when you have to fully know the subject being taught in order to avoid the evil and erroneous parts?

Let me ad - Rat poison is 99% nutritious food. "By their deeds you shall know them", God does not feed us rat poison. Enough said.

Consider the sources.

The Vatican 2 docuмents contain outright heresies, errors, and ambiguities.  

What examples do we have?

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

Quote from: TKGS

Consider the sources.

The Vatican 2 docuмents contain outright heresies, errors, and ambiguities.  

What examples do we have?

Frankly, I get so tired of people pretending not to know.  Multiple examples have been provided so often here and by so many people, everyone who has even attempted to look, has been around for more than a few months, and still asks is being dishonest.

I have read some of what LaramieHirsch has written elsewhere.  I simply cannot believe he started this topic or is asking this question.

LaramieHirsch, why don't you use the search feature and look for Vatican II error?  Right here on CathInfo there are many posts you can read that cover this.

What is more problematic with Vat.II than its errors are its rather nonstop ambiguities.  

Time and again when it says something is to remain as it is, immediately after it says that there are exceptions;  later, the exceptions became the norm.

And the fruits of Vat.II are even worse.  Nowhere in the docuмents does it say to turn the altar around, rip out the tabernacle and stick it in a broom closet, and remodel the confessionals to make them resemble a conference room.  But tell me that isn't what happened, and tell me they don't use Vat.II as the excuse for doing it.  Right, they say "according to the spirit of Vat.II."  

They leave out one word, though:  According to the unclean spirit of Vatican II.

Quote from: TKGS

Consider the sources.

The Vatican 2 docuмents contain outright heresies, errors, and ambiguities.  

What examples do we have?

Novus Ordo Watch recently posted a YouTube video that I found to be pretty effective at proving that Lumen Gentium contains blatant heresy.



The video is fascinating in that the tone of it is pretty much the polar opposite of what one would expect from something published by NOW.  I think it's safe to say they didn't produce it.  The tone adds a lot to the effectiveness of the video.

I'm ambling through this topic very slowly.  

I posted this up on my blog.  However, I don't want to leave you folks out.  I'm all ears for your input.  

____________________


What's Wrong With the Vatican II Council Docuмents?

Let's get started.  It is claimed that the following statements from the Second Vatican Council docuмents are...unreliable.  They are not...exactly...correct.  They are ambiguous.  They are poisonous.

The following ambiguities and errors are cited by a man named Michael Malone, who talks about them in a work, titled: Twenty-Five Explicit Errors of Vatican Council II

(Michael Malone actually splits #5 into two points, which is why he has 25 errors listed, while I have only 24).

The comment box is open, friends.  As always.  I'm all ears.  Enjoy.

# # #

1. "This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, continues to exist (subsists) in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him. Nevertheless, many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside its visible confines."
-Lumen Gentium.

2. "All men are called to this Catholic unity which prefigures and promotes universal peace, and in different ways belong to it, or are related to it: The Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, are called by God's grace to salvation."
-Lumen Gentium

3. "Catechumens who, moved by the Holy Spirit, desire with an explicit intention to be incorporated into the Church, are by that very intention joined to her. With love and solicitude Mother Church already embraces them as her own."
-Lumen Gentium

4. "These Christians are indeed in some real way joined to us in the Holy Spirit for, by His gifts and graces, His sanctifying power is also active in them, and He has strengthened some of them even to the shedding of their blood."
-Lumen Gentium

5. "The Moslems together with us adore the one merciful God."
-Lumen Gentium

6. "Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or of His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do His will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience, those too may achieve eternal salvation."
-Lumen Gentium

7. "Nor shall divine providence deny the assistance necessary for salvation to those who, without any fault of theirs, have not yet arrived at any explicit knowledge of God and who, not without grace, strive to lead a good life."
-Lumen Gentium

8. "Even though the Jєωιѕн authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ, neither all Jєωs indiscriminately at that time, nor Jєωs today, can be charged with the crimes committed during His passion."
-Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, "Nostra Aetate," Oct. 28, 1965

9.  "Indeed, the Church deplores all hatreds, persecutions, displays of anti-semitism levelled at any time or from any source against the Jєωs."
-Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, "Nostra Aetate," Oct. 28, 1965

10. "Therefore, the Church reproves as foreign to the mind of Christ any discrimination against people or any harassment on the basis of race, color, condition in life, or religion."
-Declaration on the Relation of the Church to Non-Christian Religions, "Nostra Aetate," Oct. 28, 1965

11. "One cannot charge with the sin of separation those at present born into communities separated from full communion with the Catholic Church and, in them, brought up in the faith of Christ; and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers. For, men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church."
-Decree on Ecuмenism, "Unitatis Redintegratio," Nov. 21, 1964

12. "All who have been justified by Faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ: they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."
-Decree on Ecuмenism, "Unitatis Redintegratio," Nov. 21, 1964

13. "The life of grace, faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church."
-Decree on Ecuмenism, "Unitatis Redintegratio," Nov. 21, 1964

14. "The brethren divided from us also carry out many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These actions most certainly can truly engender a life of grace and, one must say, can aptly give access to the communion of salvation."
-Decree on Ecuмenism, "Unitatis Redintegratio," Nov. 21, 1964

15. "In certain circuмstances, it is allowable, indeed desirable, that Catholics join in prayer with their separated brethren."
-Decree on Ecuмenism, "Unitatis Redintegratio," Nov. 21, 1964

16. "The special position of the Eastern churches: These churches though separated from us nevertheless possess true Sacraments, whereby they are still joined to us in closest intimacy. Therefore, some worship in common is not merely possible, but is encouraged."
-Decree on Ecuмenism, "Unitatis Redintegratio," Nov. 21, 1964

17. "The separated churches and ecclesiastical communities in the West: A love and reverence of Holy Scripture leads our brethren to a constant and diligent study of the Sacred Text. For the Gospel "is the power of God for salvation to everyone who has faith" (Ro.1:16)."
-Decree on Ecuмenism, "Unitatis Redintegratio," Nov. 21, 1964

18. "By the Sacrament of Baptism, whenever it is properly conferred in the way the Lord determined, and received with the proper disposition of soul, man becomes truly incorporated into Christ and is born to a sharing of the divine life."
-Decree on Ecuмenism, "Unitatis Redintegratio," Nov. 21, 1964

19. "The Christian way of life of these [Protestant] brethren is nourished by Faith in Christ. It is strengthened by the grace of Baptism and by hearing the Word of God."
-Decree on Ecuмenism, "Unitatis Redintegratio," Nov. 21, 1964

20. "It is through his conscience that man sees and recognizes the demands of the Divine Law. He is bound to follow this conscience faithfully in all his activity so that he may come to God. Therefore, he must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience, nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience."
-Declaration on Religious Freedom, "Dignitatis Humanae," December 12, 1965

21. "Religious communities have the right not to be prevented from publicly teaching and bearing witness to their beliefs by the spoken or written word."
-Declaration on Religious Freedom, "Dignitatis Humanae," December 12, 1965

22. "If special civil recognition is given to one religious community in the constitutional organization of the State, the right of all citizens and religious communities to religious freedom must be recognized and respected."
-Declaration on Religious Freedom, "Dignitatis Humanae," December 12, 1965

23. "It is fully in accordance with the nature of faith that in religious matters every form of coercion by men should be excluded."
-Declaration on Religious Freedom, "Dignitatis Humanae," December 12, 1965

24. "The human person is to be guided by his own judgment and to enjoy freedom."
-Declaration on Religious Freedom, "Dignitatis Humanae," December 12, 1965

# # #

Further discussion about the errors of the Vatican II docuмents are discussed in an audio interview here:

https://www.truerestoration.org/season-i-episode-13-the-second-vatican-council/

And, an outline of this same interview can be found in the following hyperlink, which is ironic when you consider I don't support Sedevacantism:

http://www.novusordowatch.org/wire/vatican2-docuмents-examined.htm

It drives me mad that people are incapable of seeing the big picture.  Incapable of reading between the lines.  Incapable of picking up the subtext of an event--when it's SCREAMING at us fifty years later.    

So...  Mr. Hirsch, what is the "big picture" that you see?

I see a supposed Ecuмenical Council teaching falsehoods which means that it could not have come from the Catholic Church.  What does that tell you?

If you believe that non-Catholics can be saved, then indeed there's NOTHING wrong at all with the V2 docuмents.

I see your point but I don't know if I completely agree with you, simply because most of those who reject Vatican II also believe non-Catholics can be saved. Even though they believe non-Catholics can be saved they still find errors in Vatican II and explain them. Are all of these men hypocrites?