Author Topic: We are in the Fourth great crisis in the Church - Bp. Athanasius Schneider  (Read 2018 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=888150


During a trip to England the Soviet-born bishop says the Church today is experiencing ‘tremendous confusion’

By SARAH ATKINSON

Liberals, collaborating with the “new paganism”, are driving the Catholic Church towards a split, according to Bishop Athanasius Schneider, the liturgical specialist who is carrying on a rearguard fight against “abuses” in the Church.

So serious are the problems, Bishop Schneider said in an interview last week, that this is the fourth great crisis in the history of the Church, comparable to the fourth-century Arian heresy in which a large part of the Church hierarchy was implicated.

If you have not heard of the Soviet-born bishop, you will. The sincere, scholarly clergyman is auxiliary bishop of the distant Archdiocese of St Mary in Astana, Kazakhstan. But this month he has received a rock star welcome from congregations across the country on his tour of England and he has embraced cyberspace to put over a trenchant, traditional defence of the Church. “Thanks be to God, the internet exists,” he said.

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Offline Neil Obstat

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    [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/s31ss90yghU[/youtube]

     Published on Jun 4, 2014

    From Kazakhstan, Bishop Schneider is well known as the author of Dominus Est - It is the Lord! - a defence of the traditional manner of receiving Communion.

    http://latinmasssociety.podbean.com/ for more audio

    http://www.lmschairman.org/



    Adoration of the Triune God
    Nature of the holy Mass
    Only Jesus Christ is able to adore God adequately
    Applause in church is inappropriate
    The Glory of God, NOT the glory of man
    God has no need of our glory
    Our praise does not increase His glory
    Two divine laws and the object between them
    Heretical movements
    Pope St. Stephen I - there should be no innovations (in liturgy) unless it be transmitted, as it is always an indication of a rupture
    Innovations denounced by popes, defense of tradition in liturgy, 5th century
    In liturgical reforms, the Apostolic Tradition is always followed
    (He quotes Vat.II in its good parts and ignores the heretical parts)
    The Book of Apocalypse is the liturgical book of the early Church
    Apoc. viii. 1 -- there must be silence in the liturgy:  do we have silence?
    In the reformed NovusOrdo we have NO silence
    The tabernacle is the THRONE of the LAMB -- this must be in the center, NOT the throne of the celebrant in the center [Mahony's "presider's chair"]
    The prayer of the Church must be directed to God, not to man
    The most ancient depiction of the Last Supper in the catacombs (he describes an arrangement that is not like the Leonardo da Vinci fresco)
    The cross of Christ is the true East
    Turning to face the tabernacle, toward God (adversus ad Dominum)
    Posture of modern concelebration contradicts all the rules for the gesture of being turned toward the Lord, not toward man
    The moment of Holy Communion is the most solemn, most special, most sacred moment of his life
    Reception of Communion in the mouth without touching it with the fingers
    Touching the host with one's fingers imitates taking of profane food
    Care of having the loss of even the smallest fragments
    The stealing of hosts (for abuse) -- can we be still indifferent?
    Why not return to the manner well-tried for a millennium already?
    Even Paul VI in 1969 pleaded for the preservation of Holy Communion in this way -- who is obedient to Paul VI in this?
    The arguments in favor of communion-in-the-hand LOSE in consideration of these
    Defends the reading of John i. 1-14 for concluding Mass


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    Offline soulguard

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  • Contrary to the claims of many in the SSPX, it is undeniable that the Indult clergy are fighting a war from inside the hierarchy for the survival of tradition. They are not "traitors" who commit "adultury" with the conciliar church, they in fact recognize that the Catholic church exists outside of the SSPX and they are faithful to tradition, fighting in whatever way they can. They are one of the biggest problems to the freemasons in the church.

    Anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    The OP is just a couple of edited paragraphs from the source page, under auspices of copyright infringement.  In case the source page disappears, here is a copy of the whole thing, including the first pages of comments (there are currently 155 comments to be seen, since this past Friday (June 6th) when the article appeared.





    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/features/2014/06/06/bishop-athanasius-schneider-we-are-in-the-fourth-great-crisis-of-the-church/
       

    Mon 9th Jun 2014 | Last updated: Mon 9th Jun 2014 at 17:49pm

    Catholic Herald

    Bishop Athanasius Schneider: ‘We are in the fourth great crisis of the Church’

    During a trip to England the Soviet-born bishop says the Church today is experiencing ‘tremendous confusion’

    By Sarah Atkinson on Friday, 6 June 2014



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    [Notice in this photo, the "presider's chair" that Bishop Athanasius Schneider
    bemoans is prominently in place in the middle of the sanctuary.  You'd think
    that if he really doesn't like it, he would ask one of his assistants to pick it up
    and move it out of the room, or at least off to the side and out of view.]

    Bishop Athanasius Schneider celebrates Pontifical High Mass during the Latin
    Mass Society pilgrimage to West Grinstead in Sussex (Photo: Joseph Shaw)


    Liberals, collaborating with the “new paganism”, are driving the Catholic Church towards a split, according to Bishop Athanasius Schneider, the liturgical specialist who is carrying on a rearguard fight against “abuses” in the Church.

    So serious are the problems, Bishop Schneider said in an interview last week, that this is the fourth great crisis in the history of the Church, comparable to the fourth-century Arian heresy in which a large part of the Church hierarchy was implicated.

    If you have not heard of the Soviet-born bishop, you will. The sincere, scholarly clergyman is auxiliary bishop of the distant Archdiocese of St Mary in Astana, Kazakhstan. But this month he has received a rock star welcome from congregations across the country on his tour of England and he has embraced cyberspace to put over a trenchant, traditional defence of the Church. “Thanks be to God, the internet exists,” he said.

    [The following was deleted in the OP source page] :

    His views are not popular with everyone, especially not some of his liberal colleagues, or, he says, with the mainstream media of the secular world. But his audiences tell another story.

    Bishop Schneider is best known for arguing that Holy Communion should be received on the tongue while kneeling, which he insists is the more efficient way to foster respect for the Sacrament and to prevent abuse of the Sacred Hosts. The 53-year-old bishop has called also for clarification (a new Syllabus of Errors), aimed at the clergy, to put a stop to liturgical and doctrinal freewheeling on a range of issues in the “spirit of Vatican II”.

    In his interview, Bishop Schneider said the “banal” and casual treatment of the Blessed Sacrament is part of a major crisis in the Church in which some laity and clergy, including some in positions of authority, are siding with secular society. At the heart of the problems, he believes, is the creeping introduction of a man-centred agenda, while in some churches God, in the tabernacle, really is materially put in a corner, while the priest takes centre stage. Bishop Schneider argued that this situation is now coming to a head. “I would say, we are in the fourth great crisis [of the Church], in a tremendous confusion over doctrine and liturgy. We have already been in this for 50 years.”

    How long will it last? “Perhaps God will be merciful to us in 20 or 30 years.”

    In the autumn, the synod of bishops will meet in extraordinary session to discuss the family, in the light of the questionnaire which Pope Francis invited the faithful to complete, giving their views on marriage and sexuality. Expectations are growing that rules will be relaxed on a range of sexual matters and in terms of divorced people receiving Communion as a sign of “mercy” from the Church.

    Such views, according to Bishop Schneider, reveal the depth of the problem. “I think this issue of the reception of Holy Communion by the remarried will blow up and show the real crisis in the Church. The real crisis of the Church is anthropocentrism and the forgetting of Christo-centrism…

    “This is the deepest evil: man, or the clergy, putting themselves in the centre when they are celebrating liturgy and when they change the revealed truth of God, for instance, concerning the Sixth Commandment and human sexuality.”

    Although he says talk of change is mainly coming from “the anti-Christian media”, he sees clergy and lay Catholics “collaborating” with what he calls the new paganism. Bishop Schneider is particularly critical of the idea that these changes should be made so as to be merciful to those currently barred from receiving the Sacraments. “[This is] a kind of sophism,” he said. “This is not mercy, this is cruel.”

    He suggested this was “a false concept of mercy”, saying: “It is comparable to a doctor who gives a [diabetic] patient sugar, although he knows it will kill him.”

    The bishop believes there are clear parallels with great crises of the past, when leading clergymen were complicit with heresies. In the Arian heresy, he said, naming them on his fingers, only a handful of the hierarchy resisted. “We [Christians] are a minority. We are surrounded by a very cruel pagan world. The temptation and challenge of today can be compared with the first centuries.”

    He added: “Unfortunately there were … members of the clergy and even bishops who put grains of incense in front of the statue of the emperor or of a pagan idol or who delivered the books of the Holy Scripture to be burned. Such collaborationist Christians and clerics were called in those times thurificati or traditores.”

    And today, he maintained, we also have those who collaborate, our “traitors of the Faith”.

    Pope Francis is perceived to be at the forefront of a new liberal attitude coming from Rome. But Bishop Schneider says: “Thanks be to God, Pope Francis has not expressed himself in these ways that the mass media expect from him. He has spoken until now, in his official homilies, very beautiful Catholic doctrine. I hope he will continue to teach in a very clear manner the Catholic doctrine.”

    The bishop said he hopes “the majority of the bishops still have enough Catholic spirit and faith that they will reject the proposal and not accept this”.

    Nevertheless, he can foresee a split coming, leading to an eventual renewal of the Church on traditional lines. But, he believes, this will not be before the crisis has plunged the Church further into disarray. Eventually, he thinks, the “anthropocentric” [man-centred] clerical system will collapse. “This liberal clerical edifice will crash down because they have no roots and no fruits,” he said.

    In the turmoil, Bishop Schneider, fears traditional Catholics may, for a time, be persecuted or discriminated against, even at the behest of those who have “power in the exterior structures of the Church”. But he believes those involved with the “heresy” will “not prevail against the Church”. And, in hope, the bishop said: “The Supreme Magisterium will surely issue an unequivocal doctrinal statement, rejecting any collaboration with the neo-pagan ideas.”

    At this point, Bishop Schneider believes, the modern thurificati et traditores will leave the Church. “I can presume that such a separation will affect each level of Catholics: lay people and even not excluding the high clergy,” he said.

    Such comments are unlikely to win Bishop Schneider popularity in some circles, but he argues: “It is quite insignificant to be popular or unpopular. For every member of the clergy, their first interest should be to be popular in the eyes of God and not in the eyes of today or of the powerful. Jesus said a warning: ‘Woe to you when people speak well of you.’”

    He added: “Popularity is false… Great saints of the Church, such as Thomas More and John Fisher, rejected popularity… those today who are worried about the popularity of the mass media and public opinion… will be remembered as cowards and not as heroes of the Faith.”

    Bishop Schneider observes ruefully that there are many whose views coincide with those of the pagan world who “declare themselves Catholics and even faithful to the Pope”, while “those who are faithful to the Catholic faith or those who are promoting the glory of Christ in the liturgy” are labelled extremists.

    Such critics may assert that Bishop Schneider’s concern over Holy Communion is like worrying over the numbers of angels on a pinhead. But the bishop insists that treatment of the Eucharist is at the very heart of the crisis. “The Eucharist is at the heart of the Church,” he said. “When the heart is weak, the whole body is weak.”

    He argued that receiving Communion in hand “contributes gradually to the loss of the Catholic faith in the Real Presence and in transubstantiation”.

    Bishop Schneider also rejected the idea that concern for the liturgy is less important than, or even separate from, concern for the poor. “This is erroneous. The first commandment which Christ gave us was to adore God alone. Liturgy is not a meeting of friends. It is our first task to adore and glorify God in the liturgy and also in our manner of life. From a true adoration and love of God grows love for the poor and our neighbour. It is a consequence.”

    The bishop’s views have been shaped by his early childhood, growing up as a persecuted German Catholic in the Soviet Union, where he even had to attend atheism lessons at school. His book Dominus Est discloses how the German Catholic community kept alive their faith despite severe hardship and persecution. In his own experience, his mother and great aunt took great risks for their faith and on behalf of others in the community. So Bishop Schneider and his family were horrified at the liberal attitudes and practices in the West, especially in respect of Holy Communion, which had been so rare and so precious to the persecuted German Catholics of the Soviet Union.

    Seemingly like the little boy in the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes, the bishop now feels compelled to speak out and he cannot understand why others do not do the same. “It seems that the majority of the clergy and the bishops are content with this modern use of Communion in hand… For me this is incredible. How is this possible, when Jesus is present in the little Hosts?”

    He continued: “There is the grievous fact of the loss of the Eucharistic fragments. And the fragments of the consecrated Host are crushed by feet. This is horrible! Our God, in our churches, is trampled by feet!”

    Bishop Schneider admitted that he is “very sad that I am feeling myself as one who is shouting in the desert”.

    He said: “It is time that the bishops raise their voices for the Eucharistic Jesus who has no voice to defend himself. Here is an attack on the Most Holy, an attack on the Eucharistic faith.”

    But despite his concerns, Bishop Schneider is not pessimistic and believes that there is already a groundswell of support for traditional values that will, in time, renew the Church: “Little ones in the Church have been let down and neglected,” he said. “[But] they have kept the purity of their faith and they represent the true power of the Church in the eyes of God and not those who are in administration.

    “I spoke with young students in Oxford and I was so much impressed by these students. I was so glad to see their purity of faith and their convictions, and the clear Catholic mind. This will renew the Church. So I am confident and hopeful also in respect of this crisis in the Church. The Holy Ghost will win this crisis with this little army.”

    He added: “I am not worried about the future. The Church is Christ’s Church and He is the real head of the Church, the Pope is only the vicar of Christ. The soul of the Church is the Holy Spirit and He is powerful.”

    Bishop Athanasius Schneider’s book Dominus Est: It is the Lord! is published by Newman House Press. His work Corpus Christi: Holy Communion and the Renewal of the Church, is published by Lumen Fidei Press



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    Copyright © Catholic Herald 2014. Registered in England and Wales, no. 9123451. Registered office: 15 Lamb's Passage, London EC1Y 8TQ.    website by freshSPRING





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        Daniel Crowley • 4 hours ago

        Wow! It is amazing to hear a bishop speak like this. He talks directly and speaks clearly. There's no wishy-washy language, and no feel-good pats on the back.

        This man has given me hope. Thank God for him!
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        Katherine Anne McMillan • 4 hours ago

        This Bishop is no hireling. We need Bishops and priests who care more for our souls than they do our tithes. O Lord grant us holy priests, O Lord grant us holy, holy priests, O Lord grant us holy, holy, holy priests. Amen
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        cjkeeffe • 5 hours ago

        Like St John the Baptist, a voice crying in the wilderness. Sadly his episcopla brothers who have fostered such confusions will not back him up. Just as the English And Welsh Bishops failed to back up Bishop Donoghue of Lancasters education programme, presumable because it was a catholic one.
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        Thomas Sharpe • 8 hours ago

        Thank You God for this good Bishop. Reverence for the Holy Eucharist is Reverence Itself.
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        Don Vincenzo • 13 hours ago

        Firstly I quote, "Pope Francis is perceived to be at the forefront of a new liberal attitude coming from Rome. But Bishop Schneider says: “Thanks be to God, Pope Francis has not expressed himself in these ways that the mass media expect from him. He has spoken until now, in his official homilies, very beautiful Catholic doctrine. I hope he will continue to teach in a very clear manner the Catholic doctrine.” from Bishop Schnieder.

        Therefore all those here who accuse Pope Francis, must silence their tongues, because they are guilty of sin of wrong accusation on account of their prejudices. Kindly do not have a "holier than thou" attitude. That kind of an attitude is "Spiritual Pride" which leads to the sin of the Devil eventually.
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            cjkeeffe Don Vincenzo • 5 hours ago

            Don
            The concern is not so much what Pope Francis preaches in his official sermons - but rather what he says off the cuff.
            Yes Francis is entitled to a private view but the key word is private. Sadly the media report every word that comes from his mouth as official positions.
            One could offer to pray a series of rosaries for Pope Francis but Francis ridiculed that pious practice in one of his off the cuff remarks.
            But I tend to think alongside Bishop Schnieder on this, the official stuff is good.
            What will be will be we should keep with Peter.
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            Tony Don Vincenzo • 13 hours ago

            True. We must pray for our Pope. But you will understand people's concern when he promotes a bishop who claims that he does not identify with the expressionless faces of those praying the Rosary outside clinics who practice "interruption of pregnancy".
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                Bac Tony • 12 hours ago

                And for that you condemn him? Neither do I identify with those outside clinics, it worries me that they can do that - that they can be there pointing accusing fingers at women - I would be so aware of my own sins and hope no-one would publicly point the finger at me. I always bring to mind the story of the woman caught in adultery and am happy to identify with Jesus and say Let those without sin cast the first stone. Protest about the law perhaps but to sit in judgement oh dear.
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                    Tony Bac • 12 hours ago

                    They're PRAYING for:
                    the unborn children being slaughtered in the clinics
                    the Holy Spirit to change the womens' minds
                    the Holy Spirit to change the minds of those committing the attrocities inside the clinics
                    those in positions of power to change the law to stop this slaughter
                    the intercession of the Virgin Mary

                    i condemn his view which is wrong, i don't condemn him

                    "I would be so aware of my own sins". Standing by while unborn babies are cut up and thrown in the dumpster, is that not a sin?
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                        Bac Tony • 11 hours ago

                        By all means pray for those intentions but why pray in public pointing the finger of judgement.
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                            Tony Bac • 10 hours ago

                            Why not pray in front of these slaughterhouses? Now who is judging?

                            Even if you want to consider it a basic protest, it is our right to protest peacefully.

                            no one is pointing the finger of judgement. That's a prejudice on your part. We are in fact praying and bringing attention to the slaughter of unborn children.
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                                Bac Tony • 10 hours ago

                                Prejudice! Judging!
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        San Miguel defiendenos • 16 hours ago

        Sorry but this is not confusión this is the Great Apostasy. Led by Francis
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        bluesuede • a day ago

        I LOVE BISHOP SCHNEIDER!!
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        Jim J. McCrea • a day ago

        I agree - here is my article in which I explain my own take on the crisis as the marginalization of the Eucharist.

        http://a-simple-view1.blogspot...
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            Bac Jim J. McCrea • 11 hours ago

            If the Blessed Sacrament is not central on the sanctuary in some churches it does not at all diminish it and certainly not during Mass. The symbolism of the emptiness of the altar and sanctuary, of there being mere bread and wine as we begin Mass can also be seen as a massive way of enhancing what is happening. Just as with the apostles we can begin by seeing those earthly items and then be in awe as they become the Body and Blood of Christ there before us. The reserved Sacrament is not diminished by this - it is for us to give it the due reverence and awe wherever it is.
            There not being altar rails, the priest facing us also increases my understanding of what is happening - the priest is there to communicate, to be as Christ was with the apostles. Christ would never have put a barrier between him and the apostles - he wanted them to be close to Him, to listen to Him as their friend, their teacher, to point them towards His Father - He didn't do this by having His back to them and pointing heavenwards or by asking them to receive His. Body and Blood across a barrier. He wanted to be there with them, close to them - he knows our humanness He knows how best we learn and understand. Let our priests look at us, communicate with their eyes, their bodies - the way humans best do these things and that way they will emulate their Lord and give us the best chance of seeing, hearing and understanding.
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                Scyptical Chymist Bac • 8 hours ago

                Was this not the argument of the "Reformation" clerics - and where has that led us? Certainly there should be no barriers to people hearing the Word nor were there in the older Mass and receiving Communion was done at the altar rail - scarcely a barrier rather an aid to kneeling. The priest at the altar was NOT snubbing the people when turning his back at various points, rather he was leading them in prayer and in the sacrifice, pointedly facing in the same direction to the East as were the congregation and emphasizing the unity of "my sacrifice and yours" rather than putting on a show to an audience.
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                    Bac Scyptical Chymist • 6 hours ago

                    I didn't mention snubbing. I was talking about natural human communication. As for putting on a show to an audience - not my experience with priests over many years.
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        cpsho • a day ago

        "Enough of the the “anthropocentric” [man-centred] clerical system"
        .
        "About the 'Rights of Man,' as they are called, the people have heard enough; it is time they should hear of the Rights of God" (Encyclical Letter of Pope Leo XIII on Christ our Redeemer,Nov. 1, 1900).
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        Tony • a day ago

        I read quite a few heated discussions below about receiving Jesus on the tongue vs. On the palm of the hand.

        The Host IS Jesus; is God. He is coming into us and brings us all together into Him in a beautiful Communion of Saints.

        For very practical reasons receiving Him on the tongue is essential as there is very little probability of dropping fragments on the floor i.e. dropping Jesus on the ground. Moreover, one must not chew as you will get fragments stuck in your teeth, swallowing quickly is best. My parents used to carry with them a bottle of water and we used to drink straight after in case we sneezed or threw up.

        As for kneeling or bowing deeply, this is a no brainer. You bow to the queen :-) what then of God!
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            Bac Tony • a day ago

            I'm afraid I totally disagree with you - Christ handed His Body and Blood to the apostles to eat and drink - He did not ask them to get on the floor, nor to swallow the bread quickly and have a drink of water in case bits went into their teeth and as for bits falling on the floor ...... Surely you are completing missing the point of us doing what Christ asked at the Last Supper. Our reverence and awe is to be within us and not one of us can judge the other on this. Whether on knees or standing, whether on the tongue or in the hand hearts can be sincere or insincere.
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                Tony Bac • 13 hours ago

                It's not about fake piety or pharisaic gestures.

                the crux of the matter is whether you believe that that tiny Host, the tiny piece of bread is well and truly the flesh of Jesus, of the incarnate one true God i.e. if you well and truly believe in the transubstantiation. If you do then you wouldn't want the tiniest fragment of his flesh to fall to the ground where it will inadvertently be trampled upon by people's shoes or (spat out with the fly that enters ones mouth when walking in the park on hot summer days :-) )
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                    Bac Tony • 10 hours ago

                    I'm sorry but I just cannot accept what you say. The implication being that if we receive in the hand we somehow don't really believe it is the Body and Blood of Christ and are disrespecting it. Nonsense. Please don't judge my belief because I think accepting it in the hand just as the apostles did is in some way denying or devaluing the Eucharist. Take it and eat it, take it and drink it - Christ offered His Body and Blood to the apostles and with their hands they took and accepted both - by reaching out with our hands we follow suit and it signifies our Yes so deeply.
                    If something had fallen to the floor at the Last Supper I'm sure Christ would not have created some fuss and accused the apostles of sacrilege just because they accidentally dropped the bread or wine.
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                        Tony Bac • 2 hours ago

                        "Something had fallen to the floor"..... that something is Jesus Hinself, His flesh!!

                        "Accidentally dropped the bread or wine".... it is no longer bread and wine, it is the flesh and blood of Jesus. This is what Transubstantiation is!

                        those are not crumbs that risk falling on the floor, they are the flesh of Jesus' body, God Himself.
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        Theologian • a day ago

        I am saddened by this bishop's views. Reverence comes first and foremost from the heart. There is nothing reverent in sticking your tongue out! Moreover, we use our hands for so many things, receiving the host in the hand blesses them and we take this blessing out to all that we do. As I use my hands, I have become far more aware that every action is a prayer.
        We also need to be aware that disrespect is also in our minds, the Eucharist can only be disrespected if it is in our will to commit an act of disrespect. God is impassible, He cannot be hurt! This Bishop means well, but he is stuck in the middle ages.
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            bluesuede Theologian • a day ago

            It's Jesus that reads the heart, and many people He told St. Faustina, receive Him with doubt, hate, indifference and in mortal sin, He said He'd prefer that they not receive Him at all rather than like this.
            Before "reverence" comes from the heart, the heart first needs to know what it is reverencing. It learns what to reverence by seeing the object of reverence in others, hearing the Word of God gives us faith to believe in order to love Jesus in the Eucharist, then reverence can come from the heart.
            We can't reverence something we don't understand, or love. We don't just go through the motions or just say the prayers and get the full grace from receiving the Holy Eucharist on the tongue or in the hand.

            "There is nothing reverent in sticking your tongue out! "

            There is also nothing appealing about the way some people eat their food, but that's the way we get it in. We still have to open our mouths to put the Holy Eucharist in from our hand. The hands do a lot of dirty work and are used to clean our bums!
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            Alba Theologian • a day ago

            I recall reading a comment by a Hindu holy man on the Real Presence in the Eucharist in which he said Catholics were indeed blessed and hoped they valued what they had in their churches. Were he a Catholic he would never rise from the ground. He would see no reason to cease perpetual adoration before the Divine. Makes an unthinkingly genuflect or quick swallow seem cavalier.
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                Jacobi Alba • a day ago

                And that reminds me of the comment by the Scots Presbyterian minister that if Catholics believed an bit of what they said they do about the Real Presence, they would crawl into church on their bellies!
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            rjt1 Theologian • a day ago

            You are correct in saying that God is impassible - and the philosopher-theologians of the Middle Ages would agree with you. What is present to us are the 'accidents' (or in modern terminology the 'appearances' or even 'phenomena') of bread and wine (please note that the bread and wine per se are no longer present after the consecration but only the body and blood of Our Lord). It is these 'accidents' which are subject to division/damage/change. I believe the bishop would be in error if he thought that the body and blood of Our Lord, which is, as the Council of Trent teaches, truly, really and substantially present, could be damaged if fragments of the host were - God forbid - trampled. This does not mean to say that disrespect to or casual treatment of the host is in any way acceptable.
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            Baron Kaza Theologian • a day ago

            Then God Bless his "middle age" thinking... smash the "spirit of Vatican 2"
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                rjt1 Baron Kaza • a day ago

                Actually, his thinking is not of the Middle Ages. If it were, he would be guided by Saint Thomas Aquinas, who remains a most reliable guide.
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                    Baron Kaza rjt1 • 5 hours ago

                    I stand corrected
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            James Ouellet Theologian • a day ago

            "Middle Age"?: you forget (maybe you weren't born yet) that communion on the tongue was the norm up until the early 1970's. AND…in some countries still today, Poland for one, you will not get the Host if you put your hand out. You will have to open your mouth. I know: that's exactly what happened to me at Ars in France, where I attended Mass, celebrated by a Polish priest for his Polish compatriots on pilgrimage to Ars.
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                Tony James Ouellet • 13 hours ago

                Yup. And in the Maronite church too. Moreover only the priests give communion. And we never stopped saying "and with your spirit". Maybe you cavalier Latins will eventually catch up :-) :-)
                God bless Pope Benedict
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                Theologian James Ouellet • a day ago

                I assure you that I am more than old enough to remember. I am also aware that one of the aims of Vatican II was 'aggiornamento' bringing the Church into the 20th century. Prior to that it hadn't changed since the middle ages. Some people still haven't!
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                    Baron Kaza Theologian • 5 hours ago

                    The results of Vatican 2 have been monumental disaster... its time to admit it..
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                    James Ouellet Theologian • 10 hours ago

                    Ah! But…Communion in the hand did not originate with the Vatican II fathers. It was initiated in either Belgium or Holland, both countries being known for its liberal clergy. The change spread like wildfire in western countries. Paul VI did not have the strength of character to stop it.
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            Padraig Theologian • a day ago

            Are you kidding?God cannot be hurt! So when the particles of his body fall on the floor we just walk them into the ground. Theologian your comments are a Perfect example of pre-conciliar Catholicism.
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                CAG Padraig • 9 hours ago

                I'm thinking the crucifixion hurt quite a bit.
                ... I'm also thinking that disrespecting, profaning or even desecrating Christ in the Eucharist could hurt *us* quite a bit as well.
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            AmberQuest Theologian • a day ago

            The priest washes his hands before the Consecration. How many in the pews have CLEAN HANDS? Sticking your tongue out to receive the Body of Christ is VERY REVERENT. You are not sticking your tongue out at the priest as an act of irreverence. We also use our hands to wipe our behinds.
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                Tony AmberQuest • 12 hours ago

                True. But i think the main thing is for parts of Christ's flesh not to fall to the ground. On the tongue and quickly swallowed is the most direct.
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                Bac AmberQuest • a day ago

                The priest does not wash his hands to clean them for giving out Communion - it is a symbolic cleansing.
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            ranger01 Theologian • a day ago

            Time is on the side of tradition. Simply look to the seminaries.
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            Dave Theologian • a day ago

            Take it from the 'theologian' who cannot spell 'Eucharist'.
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                Theologian Dave • a day ago

                My apologies for the spelling error, unfortunately, although I know perfectly well how to spell, this tablet keeps changing things.
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        lewispbuckingham • 2 days ago

        This bishop's comments about 'man centred clerical system' being about to collapse refers to the Curia IMHO.
        It also relates to the conduct of the Mass.
        Of the first be careful of what you wish if you are SSPX, because here we are talking, in the purest form,the laity being involved in a real way with Church governance.
        That means women in the effective new Papal advisory roles, not there because they be women, there because of their insight, competence and qualification.
        On the second if the only problem is 'communion in the hand', then Micky Mouse has entered the Curia.
        Time for an Ad Limina visit to thrash out real problems, if doctrinal.
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        Deacon Joseph Pasaquella • 2 days ago

        I have read this with tears in my eyes and heart. Long live this holy servant of God and Shepherd of Souls. He is the Icon of what a bishop should be to his fellow bishops, brother priests and deacons. God Grant him many more years of faithful service and raise him in Rank and honor. We need Cardinals like this guy, not Card. Kaspar.
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        jpct50 • 2 days ago

        God is sending a prophet into our midst.
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            cpsho jpct50 • a day ago

            Amen, brother, Amen!
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        Burt • 2 days ago

        Thank you Our Holy God, A longed for voice, an answer to our prayers. May this saintly man be listened to by all devout priests for the sake of the souls they are supposed to be leading to Heaven.
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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  • .

    There are people calling for this bishop to be elected Pope.  

    They say, it doesn't matter if he isn't a cardinal first, since that is not necessary.  It has been traditional but only of the past few centuries.  Any man can become pope, but after election he would have to be ordained a priest and consecrated bishop, and then at that moment would have the full effect of the papacy.  

    There have been prophesies from private revelations that said the great pope in the end times would arise from the east.  

    Bishop Athanasius Schneider is from Kazakhstan.  No language barrier with the Russians, BTW.  

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    Offline Ecclesia Militans

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  • He needs to leave the conciliar church.

    Offline Ladislaus

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  • While he appears to be orthodox in most ways, I just can't help but notice that his theological language is very modernist-sounding (uses a lot of modernist-like catch phrases) ... when I listened to the audio.

    I had hoped for more but was very much put off by his language and phraseology.

    Offline soulguard

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  • He once visited the Indult church I used to go to. I want him to be pope too.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    While he appears to be orthodox in most ways, I just can't help but notice that his theological language is very modernist-sounding (uses a lot of modernist-like catch phrases) ... when I listened to the audio.

    I had hoped for more but was very much put off by his language and phraseology.


    Some might suspect him of being a covert subversive or somehow suspect, like you say, for his language.  

    It seems to me that he has not had a lot of exposure to staunch traditionalists, and he might not be aware of these phrases, as you say, but that he has a very impressive sense about him.  He notices things that usually get ignored.  And he's not afraid to say what is unpopular -- in fact, he abhors the accolades of man (even while he's given "a rock star welcome" at appearances he's made in Britain).

    Here is a quote from the article, right about in the middle:

    Quote from: Bishop Athanasius Schneider

    (...Such comments are unlikely to win Bishop Schneider popularity in some circles, but he argues) :  “It is quite insignificant to be popular or unpopular.  

    "For every member of the clergy, their first interest should be to be popular in the eyes of God and not in the eyes of today or of the powerful.  

    "Jesus said a warning: ‘Woe to you when people speak well of you'.



    When's the last time you heard a bishop say that?  I don't think even ABL said that.  Or +W.  Correct me if I'm wrong, please!



    I suggest asking Ukrainians about him.  Or someone who knows Russians.  Maybe ggreg could comment, since he has experience with that part of the world.  I know a Hungarian priest who might even have met Bishop Athanasius Schneider.  I wonder what he thinks about him?

    The one thing that has me a bit put off is how he refers to various teachings of Vatican II.  So far, I haven't heard him quote any of the BAD parts (unlike Bishop Fellay, who seems to be BENT on quoting the bad parts!), but the fact that Bishop Schneider mentions Vat.II with tones of reverence makes me cringe, literally.  I can feel it in my stomach.  But maybe that's a good sign.

    This might sound silly, but I know some liberal-leaning people who might be quite willing to listen to what H.E. says, due to his soft-spoken manner.  He doesn't raise his voice and shout.  Maybe his voice isn't capable of greater volume.  But keeping the volume down seems to be impressive to liberals these days.

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    Offline soulguard

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  • Some pics of when he visited my Indult church in Dublin.





    more photos here:

    https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnbriody/sets/72157638276048783/

    Offline soulguard

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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat


    The one thing that has me a bit put off is how he refers to various teachings of Vatican II.  So far, I haven't heard him quote any of the BAD parts (unlike Bishop Fellay, who seems to be BENT on quoting the bad parts!), but the fact that Bishop Schneider mentions Vat.II with tones of reverence makes me cringe, literally.  I can feel it in my stomach.  But maybe that's a good sign.

    .


    He said there needs to be a syllabus of errors drawn up to address vatican 2.

    He is a traditional Catholic, so are the Indult who he supports. He only says the TLM.


    Offline soulguard

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  • Quote from: Ecclesia Militans
    He needs to leave the conciliar church.


    And let all the faggots and freemasons fill the void unchallenged?

    Sure. Lets say goodbye to the vatican and all the relics and churches, we dont want them anymore and wont bother fighting for them because were happy in our own little enclaves.

     :pop:

    Offline Neil Obstat

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  • .

    I, for one, would like to know what Bp. Schneider has to say about Cardinal Mindszenty.  

    The one thing that Hungarians from that time (late 1950's) say about him is that he was "very popular."  Okay, Cardinal József Mindszenty (prince primate, Archbishop of Esztergom) did not have his own popularity as an objective for his own achievement, but he got it nonetheless.  

    Therefore, if Bishop Schneider has a positive view of +Mindszenty, and it seems to me that's rather likely, perhaps then he may intend to think that it is the PURSUIT of popularity that is of no value, and that while he SAYS, "It is quite insignificant to be popular or unpopular," I would allow that he may be saying that because he knows what his listeners need to hear, but then if he were to be pressed on this matter, he could admit that adding the words, "...to become by the world's standards,..." might be more accurate, but for now, it's not what his listeners need to hear him say.  


    E.g., It is quite insignificant to become by the world's standards, popular or unpopular.

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    Offline Neil Obstat

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  • Quote from: soulguard
    Quote from: Neil Obstat

    The one thing that has me a bit put off is how he refers to various teachings of Vatican II.  So far, I haven't heard him quote any of the BAD parts (unlike Bishop Fellay, who seems to be BENT on quoting the bad parts!), but the fact that Bishop Schneider mentions Vat.II with tones of reverence makes me cringe, literally.  I can feel it in my stomach.  But maybe that's a good sign.

    .

    He said there needs to be a syllabus of errors drawn up to address vatican 2.



    You mean to say, "Vatican II" (not "vatican 2" - which could be a video game or a chocolate bar for all we know - and don't use "VII" because that means seven).

    Quote
    He is a traditional Catholic, so are the Indult who he supports. He only says the TLM.


    Maybe I should send him an e-mail.  We already have a thread started here on CathInfo on the errors of Vat.II.  Maybe he could be the one to put a lid on +Fellay's conspicuous liberalism.  

    Someone should send him a few copies of The Recusant.......  Wait..  Maybe he already has been reading them!  After all, he's wont to mention "John Fisher and Thomas More" -- although, I do wish he'd recognize that they're actually saints.




    How about this for a title of the new syllabus of errors drawn up to address Vat.II?  

    Counterfeit Catholicism:  Masterminds of Vatican II



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    Offline soulguard

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  • I see no reason why I need to use roman numerals. :thinking:

     

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