Author Topic: Was Vatican II Infallible? (Read 5466 times)

Jamie · « **Reply #50 on:** December 11, 2009, 05:43:14 AM »

Quote from: CM

Unless you believe, as the SSPX does, but doesn't come right out and say explicitly, that a heretic can hold authority in the Church, be elected of God to have the force of Divine Law behind his decrees and teachings, that he can instituted ALL MANNER OF HERETICAL WORSHIP AND PRACTICES, just so long as he doesn't try to do it ex cathedra. But that is wrong.

Infallibility means that a pope cannot err AT ALL when teaching ex cathedra, but it is still a requirement that he be CATHOLIC in his public profession, that he not contradict the Catholic Faith in any way at all.

A heretic is not pope for goodness sakes!

Sure he is - look at John Paul II, Paul VI, etc. They are legit popes unless you contrive a variety of bizarre excuses to condemn them as non-Catholics. One day people will look back on this time and refer to these popes as proof that we must hold to tradition even in the face of a Pope who teaches with ambiguity.

Let us not forget the Cadaver Synod - a previous pope was dug up and put on trial. Who is not to say that one day the tombs of JPII, Paul VI, and the likes will not be smashed because of the horrors they allowed to befall the Church? They won't be declared anti-Popes because they certainly do hold the position of power, but they are definitely showing us how close to lies a Pope can get. Fortunately in the past we haven't had to deal with this - but now we do. The solution is not to declare them all anti-popes and run away and hide whilst spouting vitriol on the internet - the solution is to pray and wait whilst rejecting the lies.

Let us not forget the Cadaver Synod in which a legitimate Pope (Stephen VI) had another (Formosus) dug up, tried, and condemned.

This synod was then later reversed by ANOTHER Pope (Pope Theodore II) and Formosus restored and Stephen condemned. THEN - after all this, ANOTHER Pope (Pope Sergius III) reconciled Stephen (posthumously) to the Church.

One day, Vatican II and its popes will be condemned - just as Stephen was for his council which tried the previous pope. Sedevacantism is cowardice - it is men who are too afraid to deal with the real situation so they pretend it isn't happening.

CM · « **Reply #51 on:** December 11, 2009, 06:05:04 AM »

Jamie the Cadaver Synod was not heretical. It was gruesome, bizarre, sinful, etc. But there were no dogmas defined and no doctrines promulgated. The Church did not institute any laws or disciplines that contradicted any previously defined dogmas or the deposit of Faith in general.

Sorry, but your parallel is simply insufficient, as are the attempts to argue with Pope Honorius, John XXII, Vigilius and Liberius. The arguments just don't fly and are completely irrelevant.

As for John Paul II and Paul IV, the objective heresy coming from their pen and out of their filthy mouths was non-stop, and if you believe that a man who has publicly defected from the faith by teaching such vile anti-Catholic doctrines retains office, then you are blaspheming the Divinely Instituted office of the papacy.

CM · « **Reply #52 on:** December 11, 2009, 06:08:06 AM »

Heresy is not a bizarre excuse to condemn someone as a non-Catholic. It is something that makes a man a non-Catholic, plain and simple. Leo XIII affirms as much in Satis Cognitum, just as Pope Eugene IV centuries before made clear that heretics are outside the Church.

Belloc · « **Reply #53 on:** December 11, 2009, 01:23:17 PM »

Quote from: CM

Benedict XVI is a heretic, and therefore not Catholic, nor the head of the body of which he is not a member. An usurper, an antipope.

other than a usual tirade for ya, what does this statement mean? he was a very minor V2 player, only in his later 30's...

this does not help defeat Kam's V2 issues at all, stick to the facts of V2 and its problems, folks...the SV diverts.....

Belloc · « **Reply #54 on:** December 11, 2009, 01:24:50 PM »

also, your ever present SV....Kam is nowhere even near that level of Faith to debate or discuss that...you are getting waaaay ahead of the cart/horse......