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Author Topic: Was Vatican II Infallible?  (Read 1337 times)

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Offline TrueCatholic

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Was Vatican II Infallible?
« on: March 26, 2014, 02:45:56 PM »
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  • Was Vatican II Infallible? - Video



    This video contains facts that people need to see.  Among other things, it covers quotes from John XXIII’s opening speech at Vatican II that will certainly surprise or even shock many.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Was Vatican II Infallible?
    « Reply #1 on: March 26, 2014, 03:04:09 PM »
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  • Isn't this video made by the unreliable Dimonds? I, for one, am very reluctant to believe in their fallible propaganda.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Was Vatican II Infallible?
    « Reply #2 on: March 26, 2014, 04:12:13 PM »
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  • So is TrueCatholic a re-tread?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline cassini

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    Was Vatican II Infallible?
    « Reply #3 on: March 27, 2014, 08:20:16 AM »
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  • First let me say I am not a sedevacantist, I simply do not know. Indeed I sympathise with them, and consider them as faithful traditional Catholics. Explaining themselves is OK by me, but trying to get others to become sedes is a step too far.

    My first encounter with the Dimonds was reading their defence of the 1741-1835 rejection of the 1616 papal decree defining and condemning Copernicanism formal heresy. The reason they did this is because by the same sedevacantist reasoning, every pope, from Benedict XIV in 1741, who accepted that heresy had to be an anti-pope. That is just not practical.

    Sedevacantism, to numerous Catholics, is the only explanation left to them in the wake of the obvious errors of Modernism arising at Vatican II and thereafter by one pope after another. It is the only explanation left in order to remain Catholic in a time when the Church of Christ is saying and doing things that have been defined and condemned by popes throughout the history of the Church.

    I must say I was under the impression Popes John XXIII and Paul VI had opted OUT of giving Vatican II their infallible perogative. The video here seems to show Vatican II had the infallible perogative. More confusion, but showing me how complex Catholic theology has become in these dark days.

    Now I have long thought about this infallibility question as many others I am sure have also. As a result I have read much, pondered endlessly on things like Our Lady's words at La Salette and even the Scriptures telling us the antichrist will gain control. As a 50s and 60s Catholic when there were no traces of Modernism to be seen to the pew-sitters, we believed God would NEVER allow such scandals into His Church by way of Modernists, child abusers by nuns, brothers and priests, paedophiles, ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖs, etc.

    Over the years I have witnessed Catholic theology getting more and more complicated, all trying to give Catholic reasons for allowing a defined and formal heresy of Copernicanism to become orthodox and a model for a new Catholic exegesis and hermeneutics. I have now come to a conclusion that satisfies me on that matter and I will now apply it to the subject of this thread's question of infallibility.

    The answer I found in Vatican I docuмents on the infallible magisterium, and I will understand them in my own way, not based of a 1000 other theological versions of it. Here it is:

    For the holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter
    not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine,
    but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles.


    Infallibility is attached to the ORIGINAL DOCTRINES AND DOGMAS defined and declared throughout time.
    This being so the above teaching of Vatican I shows it is REMOVED from any pope who on any occasion tries to make known a new doctrine that CONTRADICTS OR IS DIFFERENT from the original infallibly defined doctrines.
    This being so, and applying my interpretation (rather than sedevacantism) of above vatican i decree to Vatican II is that anywhere previous doctrines or dogmas are denied or contradicted no infallibility is present, and anywhere previous doctrines and dogmas are approved infallibility remains attached.

    No doubt I will now be shown that I too have it all wrong.








     

    Offline Nishant

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    Was Vatican II Infallible?
    « Reply #4 on: March 27, 2014, 09:28:27 AM »
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  • If Vatican II really was intended to be infallible, and I don't say this lightly, then all of us are wrong.

    Quote from: SSPX.org
    Indeed, the sedevacantists think, in general, that the teaching of the Council should have been covered by the infallibility of the ordinary and universal magisterium, and consequently should not contain any errors. But, since there are errors, for example, on religious liberty, they conclude that Paul VI had ceased to be pope at that moment.

    Really, if one accepted this argument, then it would be necessary to say that the whole Catholic Church disappeared then, too, and that "the gates of hell had prevailed" against her. For the teaching of the ordinary, universal magisterium is that of the bishops, of the whole Church teaching.

    It is simpler to think that the teaching of the Council and of the Conciliar Church is not covered by the infallibility of the ordinary, universal magisterium for the reasons explained in the article of Fr. Pierre-Marie, O.P., on the authority of the Council that appeared in Sel de la terre, "L’autorite du Concile," pp.32-63.

    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.


    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Was Vatican II Infallible?
    « Reply #5 on: March 27, 2014, 10:31:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nishant
    If Vatican II really was intended to be infallible, and I don't say this lightly, then all of us are wrong.

    Quote from: SSPX.org
    Indeed, the sedevacantists think, in general, that the teaching of the Council should have been covered by the infallibility of the ordinary and universal magisterium, and consequently should not contain any errors. But, since there are errors, for example, on religious liberty, they conclude that Paul VI had ceased to be pope at that moment.

    Really, if one accepted this argument, then it would be necessary to say that the whole Catholic Church disappeared then, too, and that "the gates of hell had prevailed" against her. For the teaching of the ordinary, universal magisterium is that of the bishops, of the whole Church teaching.

    It is simpler to think that the teaching of the Council and of the Conciliar Church is not covered by the infallibility of the ordinary, universal magisterium for the reasons explained in the article of Fr. Pierre-Marie, O.P., on the authority of the Council that appeared in Sel de la terre, "L’autorite du Concile," pp.32-63.


    In general...

    Anyone who becomes aware of the significant differences in the Catholic Faith before and after the Second Vatican Council is going to be faced with a decision. Right or wrong, a realization of the contradictions that are present will demand a choice.  There are only four choices; Either one is right and the other is wrong, both are correct, or neither are true.  How you decide is up to you... pray, fast, study, investigate, collaborate, withdraw... however we individually choose to deal with this situation is a personal choice - A choice we are responsible to God for.  He alone knows the motives and reasons for the choices we make, and He alone will judge us for our choices.  But most importantly, we should conduct ourselves with Christian charity among others.  Our goal, first and foremost, should be in service to our Lord.  God is providing for each of us.  I trust completely that He sends graces to all that desire them, so that we might continue towards perfection in Him.

    With regard to the SSPX quote, in my opinion, it appears obvious that Giovanni Battista Montini departed from the Catholic fold prior to the usurpation of the Holy See through his association with Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ, whereby, from my perspective, the Second Vatican Council teachings were never promulgated by a pope.
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Nishant

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    Was Vatican II Infallible?
    « Reply #6 on: March 27, 2014, 11:42:19 AM »
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  • JohnAnthonyMarie, right, I understand your perspective, that Pope Paul VI was never Pope to begin with.

    The article raises the other question, if - as most sedevacantists argue - the promulgation of Vatican II was such as to cause the loss of office in those who promulgated it, (and that for this reason Pope Paul VI ceased to be Pope,) would that not mean not only the Pope but all the bishops also lost their office?

    It also makes this second point - all the bishops of the world, even during a vacancy of the Holy See, constitute the whole Church teaching. Now if all the bishops, during a vacancy, actually intend to teach infallibly and without error, can they still promulgate together what amounts to heresy?

    From the Society's perspective, it seems better to say that the Council was not and could not have been intended to be infallibly promulgated, and that that explains the possibility of ambiguity and error in the Conciliar docuмents.
    "Never will anyone who says his Rosary every day become a formal heretic ... This is a statement I would sign in my blood." St. Montfort, Secret of the Rosary. I support the FSSP, the SSPX and other priests who work for the restoration of doctrinal orthodoxy and liturgical orthopraxis in the Church. I accept Vatican II if interpreted in the light of Tradition and canonisations as an infallible declaration that a person is in Heaven. Sedevacantism is schismatic and Ecclesiavacantism is heretical.

    Offline crossbro

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    Was Vatican II Infallible?
    « Reply #7 on: March 27, 2014, 11:43:59 AM »
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  • If you want to make sure that a project is not questioned on its infallibility, then don't invite the protestants.



    Offline TrueCatholic

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    Was Vatican II Infallible?
    « Reply #8 on: March 27, 2014, 03:20:58 PM »
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  • Justification Debate - Bro. Peter Dimond vs Keith Thompson -

    Offline Ambrose

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    Was Vatican II Infallible?
    « Reply #9 on: March 27, 2014, 04:17:42 PM »
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  • Did Vatican II Teach Infallibly, John S. Daly, 2008.

    Posted in the CathInfo library found HERE
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline TrueCatholic

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    Was Vatican II Infallible?
    « Reply #10 on: March 27, 2014, 05:03:57 PM »
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  • Some words on the illogical heretic John Daly

    http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/John_Daly.php

    John Daly is a heretic and a joke


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Was Vatican II Infallible?
    « Reply #11 on: March 27, 2014, 06:13:41 PM »
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  • Quote from: TrueCatholic
    Some words on the illogical heretic John Daly

    http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/John_Daly.php

    John Daly is a heretic and a joke


    So are you Peter or Michael?
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline Ambrose

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    Was Vatican II Infallible?
    « Reply #12 on: March 27, 2014, 06:23:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: TrueCatholic
    Some words on the illogical heretic John Daly

    http://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/John_Daly.php

    John Daly is a heretic and a joke


    So are you Peter or Michael?


    I agree 2Vermont, I think that this may be one of them.  Protestants are not allowed to evangelize on this forum.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic