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Author Topic: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)  (Read 11295 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2024, 06:32:04 AM »
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  • Thoughts from Vatican 1:

    For the Holy Spirit was promised to the successors of Peter not so that they might, by his revelation, make known some new doctrine, but that, by his assistance, they might religiously guard and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith transmitted by the apostles (Pastor Aeternus, 4.6).
    ---
    The pope cannot change Tradition anymore than he can invent new doctrines. 

    Ridiculous.  Just when I thought that you were starting to get your senses about you.  Idiotic and basically Old Catholic.  That section of Vatican I is not teaching your heretical R&R garbage, but is merely defining the Magisterium, distinguishing it from Revelation, teaching that the Magisterium does not add to the Deposit of Revelation.  It has nothing to do with your heretical R&R fantasies.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)
    « Reply #16 on: February 26, 2024, 06:36:56 AM »
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  • Paul VI, 1976:

    Secret Consistory for the appointment of twenty Cardinals (May 24, 1976) | Paul VI (vatican.va)

    2) But there are also reasons for bitterness, which we certainly do not want to veil or minimize: and they arise especially from the relief of a polarity, often irreducible in certain of its excesses, which manifests in different fields a superficial immaturity, or a stubborn obstinacy, in essence a bitter deafness to appeals to that healthy balance, conciliatory of tensions, Starting from the great lesson of the Council, it is now more than ten years.

    a) On the one hand, there are those who, under the pretext of greater fidelity to the Church and to the Magisterium, systematically reject the teachings of the Council itself, its application and the reforms that flow from it, its gradual application by the Apostolic See and the Episcopal Conferences, under our authority, willed by Christ. The authority of the Church is discredited in the name of a Tradition, respect for which is attested only materially and verbally; the faithful are turned away from the bonds of obedience to the See of Peter as well as to their legitimate Bishops; Today's authority is rejected in the name of yesterday's. And the fact is all the more serious because the opposition of which we speak is not only encouraged by a few priests, but led by a Bishop, whom We have always venerated, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre.
    It is so painful to note this: but how can we fail to see in such an attitude - whatever the intentions of these people may be - placing oneself outside obedience and communion with the Successor of Peter and therefore with the Church?
    For this, unfortunately, is the logical consequence, that is, when it is maintained that it is preferable to disobey under the pretext of keeping one's faith intact, to work in one's own way for the preservation of the Catholic Church, while at the same time denying her effective obedience. And it's said openly! One dares to affirm that the Second Vatican Council is not binding; that the faith would also be endangered because of the post-conciliar reforms and orientations, that one has the duty to disobey in order to preserve certain traditions. What traditions? It is this group, and not the Pope, not the College of Bishops, not the Ecuмenical Council, that determines which of the innumerable traditions should be considered as a norm of faith. As you see, venerable Brethren, this attitude stands as a judge of that divine will which placed Peter and his legitimate Successors at the head of the Church in order to confirm the brethren in the faith and to shepherd the universal flock (cf. Lk 22:32; I. 21:15 ff.), which established him as guarantor and guardian of the deposit of the Faith.
    And this is all the more serious, in particular, when division is introduced, precisely where congvegavit nos in unum Christi amor, into the Liturgy and the Eucharistic Sacrifice, rejecting obedience to the norms defined in the liturgical field. It is in the name of Tradition that we ask all our children, all Catholic communities, to celebrate the renewed Liturgy with dignity and fervour. The adoption of the new "Ordo Missae" is certainly not left to the discretion of priests or the faithful: and the Instruction of 14 June 1971 provided for the celebration of Mass in the ancient form, with the authorization of the Ordinary, only for elderly or infirm priests who offer the Divine Sacrifice sine populo. The new Ordo was promulgated to replace the old, after mature deliberation, following the demands of the Second Vatican Council. In the same way, our holy Predecessor Pius V had made the Reformed Missal obligatory under his authority, following the Council of Trent.
    We demand, with the same supreme authority that comes to us from Christ Jesus, the same readiness to apply all the other liturgical, disciplinary and pastoral reforms that have matured in recent years in application of the Council's decrees. Any initiative that aims to hinder them cannot arrogate to itself the prerogative of rendering a service to the Church: in fact, it does grave harm to her.
    Several times, directly, through our collaborators and other friends, we have called Archbishop Lefebvre's attention to the gravity of his attitudes, the irregularity of his principal present initiatives, the inconsistency and often falsity of the doctrinal positions on which he bases both, and the damage that comes from them to the whole Church.
    It is with deep bitterness but with paternal hope that we turn once more to this confrere of ours, to his collaborators and to those who have allowed themselves to be carried away by them. Oh, of course, we believe that many of these faithful, at least at first, were in good faith: we also understand their sentimental attachment to habitual forms of worship or discipline which had long been their spiritual support and in which they had found spiritual nourishment. But we are confident that they will be able to reflect calmly, without taking sides, and will admit that they will find today the support and nourishment they seek, in the renewed forms which the Second Vatican Ecuмenical Council and We Ourselves have decreed as necessary, for the good of the Church, her progress in the contemporary world, her unity. We therefore exhort, once again, all these brothers and sons of ours, we implore them to become aware of the deep wounds which they otherwise cause to the Church, we again invite them to think . . .
    It is with deep sadness but with paternal hope that we turn once more to our confrere Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, to his collaborators; We invite them to think of Christ's grave warnings about the unity of the Church (cf. Jn 17:21ff.) and about the obedience due to the legitimate Shepherd whom he presides over to the universal flock, as a sign of the obedience due to the Father and the Son (cf10, 16). We await them with an open heart, with our arms ready to embrace: may they be able to rediscover in humility and edification, to the joy of the People of God, the way of unity and love.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)
    « Reply #17 on: February 26, 2024, 06:46:01 AM »
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  • Paul VI, 1976:

    Nah, Paul VI Montini's explicit statement is not "proof" for Pax.

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)
    « Reply #18 on: February 26, 2024, 09:00:55 AM »
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  • Paul VI, 1976:

    Secret Consistory for the appointment of twenty Cardinals (May 24, 1976) | Paul VI (vatican.va)

    ... And it's said openly! One dares to affirm that the Second Vatican Council is not binding; that the faith would also be endangered because of the post-conciliar reforms and orientations, that one has the duty to disobey in order to preserve certain traditions. What traditions? It is this group, and not the Pope, not the College of Bishops, not the Ecuмenical Council, that determines which of the innumerable traditions should be considered as a norm of faith. As you see, venerable Brethren, this attitude stands as a judge of that divine will which placed Peter and his legitimate Successors at the head of the Church in order to confirm the brethren in the faith and to shepherd the universal flock (cf. Lk 22:32; I. 21:15 ff.), which established him as guarantor and guardian of the deposit of the Faith.
    ...The new Ordo was promulgated to replace the old, after mature deliberation, following the demands of the Second Vatican Council. In the same way, our holy Predecessor Pius V had made the Reformed Missal obligatory under his authority, following the Council of Trent.
    We demand, with the same supreme authority that comes to us from Christ Jesus, the same readiness to apply all the other liturgical, disciplinary and pastoral reforms that have matured in recent years in application of the Council's decrees. Any initiative that aims to hinder them cannot arrogate to itself the prerogative of rendering a service to the Church: in fact, it does grave harm to her.

    This is very interesting. I did not know that the man himself said it.

    It is very clear that the man on whose authority the council depended upon claimed that the council was binding.

    He even mentions St. Pius V and says that he is making the New Mass obligatory in the same way that the 1570 Missal was made obligatory.

    People have made all sorts of strange arguments to claim the contrary, but it is very clear that Paul VI taught heresy and made the council binding.

    The consequences should be of no concern if people were intellectually honest.

    It is as though they wanted to reject Sedevacantism so badly that they don't even consider it and use every sort of distorted logic to prove that it is false.

    So much for studying Thomism...

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)
    « Reply #19 on: February 26, 2024, 09:44:08 AM »
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  • Quote
    An ecuмenical (I prefer the term "general") council does not possess the charism of infallibility through the exercise of the Extraordinary Magisterium in defining doctrines.
    All ecuмenical councils prior to V2 did exercise the extraordinary/solemn Magisterium.  ??  Your assertion is theoretical, because prior to V2, it's never happened.


    Quote
    A general council by its very nature possesses the charism of infallibility when exercising both the Extraordinary and Ordinary Universal Magisteria.
    Infallibility is the result of the teaching authority level, not the # of people in attendance.  V2 didn't exercise either the extraordinary or ordinary/universal magisterium


    Quote
    A conciliar teaching need not be a formal, dogmatic definition (usually with an anathema attached) to enjoy the protection of infallibility.
    True.  Only solemn/extraordinary magisterial pronouncements need to follow V1's rules.  But...then what are the rules for the ordinary magisterium to be infallible?  1) Canon Law tells us that only those statements which clearly indicate the desire to be infallible, are.  As did many pre-V2 theologians.  2) Non-solemn/non-extraordinary statements must show how any infallible teachings are of Tradition/Revelation and have always been taught (i.e. truths must be proved to be universal and constantly held).

    a) V2 did not desire to teach infallibly and Paul 6 said so many times, as did JP2 and Benedict. 
    b) It's docuмents did not teach universal truths, but "pastoral application" of doctrines for "modern times"...which was admitted many, many times.
    c) V2 did not teach with a "certainty of faith", which is what infallible decrees require of all catholics.
    d) V2 only requires catholics to provide "religious assent", which is a novelty, and can be questioned, discussed and analyzed assent.  Again, no infallible statement can be questioned, discussed or analyzed.  Thus, V2 is not infallible.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)
    « Reply #20 on: February 26, 2024, 09:46:25 AM »
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  • Quote
    teaching that the Magisterium does not add to the Deposit of Revelation. 
    Of course, I agree.  There are NO NEW catholic doctrines.  Ever.  Everything of our Faith is contained in Revelation, Tradition or Scripture.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)
    « Reply #21 on: February 26, 2024, 09:54:15 AM »
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  • Quote
    And it's said openly! One dares to affirm that the Second Vatican Council is not binding; that the faith would also be endangered because of the post-conciliar reforms and orientations, that one has the duty to disobey in order to preserve certain traditions. What traditions? It is this group, and not the Pope, not the College of Bishops, not the Ecuмenical Council, that determines which of the innumerable traditions should be considered as a norm of faith. As you see, venerable Brethren, this attitude stands as a judge of that divine will which placed Peter and his legitimate Successors at the head of the Church in order to confirm the brethren in the faith and to shepherd the universal flock (cf. Lk 22:32; I. 21:15 ff.), which established him as guarantor and guardian of the deposit of the Faith.
    If Paul 6 had wanted to make V2, he should have used his infallible authority to do so.  But he didn't.  He can't come along after the docuмents are signed and claim something different.  You can't sign a contract that lasts for 1 year, and then claim after the fact that you meant 5 years.  The docuмent speaks for itself.

    Secondly, V2 officials use "binding" in a different sense than historical meaning.  (As Modernists do, they change the meaning of words).  For them, binding means "religious assent", not a "certainty of faith".  This is a HUGE difference.

    Infallible statements require - a) certainty of Faith, b) under pain of sin, c) from the entire church, d) denial means losing your soul.
    V2 statements require a) religious assent, b) no pain of sin, c) for the Latin Church only, d) denial means...?? (undefined)

    Apples - pineapples difference.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)
    « Reply #22 on: February 26, 2024, 09:57:55 AM »
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  • Quote
    No, you've mentally filtered out "proof".  Montini repeatedly stated both that 1) the solemn Magisterium had not been engaged and 2) that it was binding.  Every V2 docuмent concludes with the boilerplate that the teaching was to be held by all the faithful.  Both have been repeatedly cited, but you simply ignore them because you've decided that anything that's not "solemn Magisterium" is fair game for Catholics to reject, and so this is a mental contradiction to you based on your error, leading to your filtering out #2.
    Religious Assent <> Certainty of Faith.


    As V2 officials have repeatedly stated in negotiations with the sspx, the V2 docuмents can be questioned, because they aren't infallible.  The use of the word "binding" is not used in the same way in relation to infallible statements.  They have corrupted the word "binding" just like "ecuмenical" and 100s of other words.


    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)
    « Reply #23 on: February 26, 2024, 01:28:41 PM »
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  • Religious Assent <> Certainty of Faith.


    As V2 officials have repeatedly stated in negotiations with the sspx, the V2 docuмents can be questioned, because they aren't infallible.  The use of the word "binding" is not used in the same way in relation to infallible statements.  They have corrupted the word "binding" just like "ecuмenical" and 100s of other words.
    Literally who cares what a bunch of freemasons said?

    The docuмents were promulgated with Paul VI's pretended apostolic authority. If he had it, you owe it religious submission of mind and will. Simple as.

    Some councils had only the approval of a papal legate, nothing more is necessary, but every V2 docuмent even ends with Paul VI invoking hia apostolic authority to bind the universal Church on matters of faith and morals.

    Furthermore, the docuмents themselves identify heresies as "rooted in divine revelation", which would be infallible according to Pope Leo XIII.

    https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/vatican-ii-infallible/


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)
    « Reply #24 on: February 26, 2024, 01:56:41 PM »
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  • Some councils had only the approval of a papal legate, nothing more is necessary, but every V2 docuмent even ends with Paul VI invoking hia apostolic authority to bind the universal Church on matters of faith and morals.
    No, they don't. Here are all of the V2 docuмents, that's not on any of them.

    Some have nothing, but the best I can find is this ending:
    Quote
    "Each and all these matters which are set forth in this Decree have been favorably voted on by the Fathers of the Council. And We, by the apostolic authority given Us by Christ and in union with the Fathers, approve, decree and establish them in the Holy Spirit and command that they be promulgated for the glory of God."
    This does not mean V2's heresies are binding on the Universal Church. It means they all voted on it, presumably including the prots, and the pope commanded it be promulgated. Does not bind anyone to anything, never has.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)
    « Reply #26 on: February 26, 2024, 02:12:41 PM »
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  • This does not mean V2's heresies are binding on the Universal Church.

    You need to stop posting because your lack of knowledge is causing the brains of everyone who has an even rudimentary grasp of the principles of logic to smoke.  My brain hurts reading these idiotic posts.

    If V2 would have been a legitimate Ecuмenical/General Council, it's teachings would have been binding and would have been protected from teaching heresy.

    You constantly beg the question that V2 is a legitimate Council (convened and approved by a legitimate Pope) and then you beg the question that the V2 papal claimants are legitimate popes, in effect leading to circular reasoning where you assume the conclusion in order to "prove" the conclusion.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)
    « Reply #27 on: February 26, 2024, 02:18:39 PM »
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  • MAJOR:  General Councils cannot teach heresies or grave errors to the Church.
    MINOR:  Vatican II taught heresies and grave errors to the Church.
    CONCLUSION:  Vatican II was not a General Council.

    Next Step:

    MAJOR:  General Councils are councils that are convened and approved by a legitimate Pope.
    MINOR:  Paul VI convened and approved Vatican II.
    CONCLUSION:  Paul VI was not a legitimate pope.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)
    « Reply #28 on: February 26, 2024, 02:40:52 PM »
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  • You need to stop posting because your lack of knowledge is causing the brains of everyone who has an even rudimentary grasp of the principles of logic to smoke.  My brain hurts reading these idiotic posts.

    If V2 would have been a legitimate Ecuмenical/General Council, it's teachings would have been binding and would have been protected from teaching heresy.

    You constantly beg the question that V2 is a legitimate Council (convened and approved by a legitimate Pope) and then you beg the question that the V2 papal claimants are legitimate popes, in effect leading to circular reasoning where you assume the conclusion in order to "prove" the conclusion.
    You need to stop thinking that your sede opinion is truth - it's not, it's just an opinion. Comprende?

    You are the one who WRONGFULLY said: "Every V2 docuмent concludes with the boilerplate that the teaching was to be held by all the faithful." This demonstrates where your sede opinion leads, always remember, it's only your opinion. All I did was point out your error - and you come back with more of your ridiculous vitriol. Iniquitous I tell you.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Was Vatican 2 actually binding? (assuming Paul 6 was Pope)
    « Reply #29 on: February 26, 2024, 02:44:42 PM »
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  • MAJOR:  General Councils cannot teach heresies or grave errors to the Church.
    MINOR:  Vatican II taught heresies and grave errors to the Church.
    CONCLUSION:  Vatican II was not a General Council.

    Next Step:

    MAJOR:  General Councils are councils that are convened and approved by a legitimate Pope.
    MINOR:  Paul VI convened and approved Vatican II.
    CONCLUSION:  Paul VI was not a legitimate pope.
    All roads for you start and end at popes, who are not popes. It's fatiguing.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse