It just seems to me to be common sense [not to mention sensus catholicus] that the laity shouldn't be getting involved in this sort of activity.
A priest suggested that I use that book to solve the lack of progress in my life, which he said was caused by demons (the problem was solved months later, but not by that book).
I offer Yeti my thanks for initially pointing out this issue.
Novus Ordo priest, or someone from the SSPX, SSPV, CMRI, etc?
NO with strong traditionalist leanings. He thought Fr. Ripperger was kosher, so to speak.Yes, Fr. Ripperger enjoys strong popularity among the conservative types of the Novus Ordo church.
Lest this topic get buried in the lengthy argument on the other thread, "Father" Chad Ripperger has a following among Trads and has published a book "Deliverence Prayers for the Laity". In addition to some normal prayers, wherein the faithful pray to God, Our Lady, and the saints to protect us from demons, Ripperger also includes various prayers wherein the laity are supposed to deliberately engage the demons and issue orders to them to depart, acting as lay exorcists. "I cast you out ...", "I command you ...", etc. I will cite specific examples later.
So after many attempts in vain to get some justification for this practice in Traditional sources, we were pointed to St. Alphonsus, but St. Alphonsus unequivocally condemns the practice (despite Ripperger's blunder, misreading it to justify this novelty that had hitherto only been practiced by Prots who believe that they all have "priestly" authority). Ripperger even adapted some Prot "Deliverence Prayers" to make them seem more Catholic.
Attempting to directly engage demons and to command them is incredibly dangerous. Do not be fooled by Ripperger posturing as a Traditional Catholic (as he actually denounces Traditional Catholics from the pulpit).
I will cite the relevant passages, but St. Alphonsus discusses the subject of "Adjuration" (into which category exorcism falls).
After defining it as the invocation of God, of holy things, or of the saints in order to get someone to do or not to do something, St. Alphonsus distinguishes not only between solemn and private exorcism (the former being the official Rites / ceremonies of the Church conducted by duly appointed ministers and the latter being anything else), but he also makes another separate distinction between two types of adjuration:
Imperative (issuing commands) and Deprecatory (making requests).
St. Alphonsus teaches that it's mortal sin to issue deprecatory adjurations to demons, and also states that imperative adjurations can ONLY be issued by 1) those in authority to their subjects, and 2) EXORCISTS to demons (as exorcists have the Church's authority over demons).
So for those of us who are not Exorcists, 1) we have no authority to issue imperative adjurations to demons and 2) it would be grave sin to issue deprecatory adjurations to them (that would be a mortal sin even for an Exorcist, by the way).
Consequently, Ripperger's novel (Prot-like) approach to deliverance prayers wherein the laity are encouraged to issue commands to demons is incredibly dangerous and could result in severe retaliation by the demons that do not acknowledge our authority over them.
Traditional Catholics should avoid his books and his talks.
Instead, we pray to God, to Our Lord, to Our Lady, the Terror of Demons, to the angels (St. Michael and our Guardian Angels) to protect us, and, as St. Francis de Sales says, we are to ignore demons and not engage them, knowing that God is in total control over what they are allowed or not allowed to do to us. We must avoid the itchy ears and the curiosity of wanting to dabble with and engage occult forces, as that is precisely how we open ourselves up to their greater influence in our affairs. We use the Church's sacramentals (holy water, blessed salt, St. Benedict's medals, etc.) and consecrate ourselves to Our Blessed Mother, from whom the demons flee in terror.
This is, BTW, probably how Pablo came under diabolical influence/control.
Fr. Ripperger was such a scandal at St. Joan of Arc in Coeur d'Alene, ID that a large group of his parishioners appealed to the bishop to remove or discipline him. The complaints involved financial mishandlings and inappropriate friendships with female parishioners. He even had a minion harassing people on his behalf and police were involved. This man is a public figure in rad-trad circles. Fr. Ripperger was transferred to Tulsa shortly after the meeting with St. Joan of Arc parishioners with the bishop.
Dear M. Szijarto-
I believe this research may be your most valuable contribution to date, and wanted to thank you for doing the legwork researching. S. Alphonsus.
I purchased Abbe Ripperger's book a year (or more) ago, but was never completely comfortable with reading it, precisely because I wondered about the prudence of using some of these prayers, and so it has sat upon my shelves unread, collecting dust. Your post(s) rather serve to confirm my reluctance, and I will be depositing the book in the rubbish bin once I walk away from this computer.
I am wondering if perhaps it might not be a good idea for you to forward your findings to some traditional priests for wider circulation and feedback, as it may help some people avoid the dangers you have recounted on the subject.
Thanks again.
I sent the following message to Father Ripperger's group, the Doloran Fathers --
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Dear Fathers,
Father Chad Ripperger's encouragement of the laity to make imperative adjuration of demons is extremely dangerous and represents a misreading and misinterpretation of St. Alphonsus. St. Alphonsus makes a distinction not only between solemn and private, but also a separate distinction between imperative and deprecatory. Father conflates the two sets of distinctions, leading to a false conclusion. Deprecatory adjuration of demons is forbidden (under pain of mortal sin) not only to Laity but even to Exorcists. Imperative Adjuration, however, is permitted or applicable ONLY (Latin tantum) to
1) those in authority to their subordinates and
2) Exorcists to demons (just an extension of the first category, as Exorcists have authority over demons).
This notion that the Laity have authority to issue imperative adjuration to demons when they afflict those under our authority is a novelty. Nowhere is it stated that it is permitted to issue these adjurations to the bad actors afflicting those under our authority, but only to those under our own authority. This is a dangerous and novel practice, more akin to recent Protestant "Deliverance" Prayer (a term not known to Catholics) than to any Traditional Catholic practice, and Father Ripperger needs to retract this false theology lest it cause serious harm due to demonic retaliation, his anecdotal assertion that such has not been "reported" notwithstanding.
Catholics recognize that God is in total control of what demons are permitted or not permitted to do, and we are content to pray with simple confidence to God, Our Lord, Our Lady, the Terror of Demons, to St. Michael and the Guardian Angels, as being much more efficacious than our own personal adjuration to demons.
This practice has also led to an unhealthy curiosity among the faithful about demonic activity, and curiosity about and engagement with demonic and occult forces is one of the surest ways to open the door to their having a greater influence in our affairs. This notion of wanting to find out the names of the specific evil spirits afflicting us, as if this knowledge would give us greater "power" over them, smacks of superstition. We can simply trust Our Blessed Mother and ask her, "Please dispel and put to flight WHATEVER demons may be afflicting ur or ours." We can in fact adjure our Angels and our Guardian angels, and those of our wives and children, in deprecatory fashion, appealing to our authority over our loved ones and ask them to enforce this authority against demonic forces, and that is truly efficacious, as they are, unlike their demonic counterparts, very much inclined to enforce our authority over our loved ones as being the authority of God Himself.
There's a subtle insinuation in Father's approach that demonic forces are responsible for nearly all ills that afflict us, down to financial problems, rather than some of these being the consequences of our own sins, and temptations also from the flesh and the world (and not just the devil). This thinking also appeals to those who might wish to offload responsibility for their sins and failings onto some demon, and, what's more, even some demon that their great-great-great grandfather has introduced into the family line. So, when I look at pornography, it's my great-great-great-grandfather's fault, right? This thinking is both dangerous and unhealthy, and yet Father Ripperger has attained to a somewhat celebrity status by appealing to the natural itchy ears and curiosity about such matters among the faithful, not unlike those shows about "Ghost Hunters" have done in the secular world. This is wrong, it's harmful, and it's dangerous.
Finally, St. Alphonsus also teaches it to be mortal sin for the Exorcist to interrogate demons about any matters not directly related to extirpating the demon from harassing the obsessed ... and at least a venial since if done infrequently. Among other things, demons are known to LIE, and whatever they say should not be reported or disseminated, such as when demons claim that the time of their power is coming to a close. Again, this smacks of getting attention and hits for a celebrity's social media presence.
Father has also uncharitably attacked a false caricature of "Traditional Catholics," of whom I am one, from the pulpit. While certainly many Traditional Catholics are afflicted with some of the tendencies he has outlined, the assertion that "Trads" (a derogatory term) are even more prone to sins of impurity than their Conciliar counterparts, is completely false and slanderous. We have the entire world awash with impurity, and the "Trads" I know are at least battling against these vices, while the Conciliarists often celebrate them (including vices against nature, such as sodomy and transgenderism), and the simple fact is that in a typical Conciliar parish of 10,000 you might have 3-4 show up for the 30 minute Confession window on a Saturday afternoon, while all 10,000 march up to receive Holy Communion on Sunday, and so hearing Confessions of "Trads" who feel the need to confess, is no indicator of this purely anecdotal assertion that Trads are more impure on account of pride, as these "statistics" are inherently skewed.
Allegations of "Gnosticism" are also absurd when this adherence to truth rests firmly on a devotion to and subjection to the Church's own teaching, whereas 90%+ of the Conciliarists, by their own polls, reject one Catholic dogma or another ... including the vast majority of the Conciliar Bishops. It is not sinful or proud to call these wolves in sheep's clothing out for teaching heresy and misleading the faithful, leading souls to hell. St. Paul bids us to reject those who preach another Gospel, be it himself or one posing as an angel of light. Father adopts a very condescending and, ironically, arrogant and "Gnostic" tone himself in his condemnation of "Trads", as if somehow he alone holds the key to the "true" balance between the extremes of Trads and the errors of the Conciliar Church.
I appeal to Father Ripperger to prayerfully consider these points and to undo the possible damage he's done by promoting the direct engagement of the Laity with demonic spirits, attempting to issue imperative adjurations and exercising inordinate curiosity about demonic and occult matters.
God bless you,
Laszlo Szijarto
M. Szijarto-
In the interest of inducing more people to read your letter, I took the liberty of reintroducing the formatting, which was lost when you posted it here (see above; it might not be exactly the way you originally had it, but it will be close, and you can subsequently quote my post to make any corrections).
Since this is about the other thread on Ripperger, here is the most recent reply I posted on that one.
(And Lad's thread gets a free bump)
"I don't know what to say. Everyone wants pre-vatican 2 sources. The photo I posted of the preface on the copy of the long form St Michael prayer stated that the laity could pray it in private. At the end of the prayer there's an imprimatur.
Both of Ripperger's books in question have an imprimatur. He says we can adjure demons in private.
The Catholic encyclopedia article has an Imprimatur. It states all laity may adjure privately.
Two of three bishops, pre VII. Three bishops and a priest that studied theology. All probably have degrees in theology.
Your conclusion doesn't have an Imprimatur. Neither does my opinion.
I dunno. My understanding is that an Imprimatur is a traditional means of implying a work is free of error.
Which way am I supposed to lean as a Catholic ?"
Pax
Pope Leo XIII is known for composing his famous prayer to St. Michael the Archangel (https://hozana.org/en/prayer/st-michael/leo-xiii), as well as an exorcism prayer. For over a century, Pope Leo XIII’s prayer to St. Michael was recited after each Low Mass. As for the exorcism prayer, it was added to the Roman Rite at the beginning of the XXth century, and bishops and priests were encouraged to recite it regularly in their parishes and dioceses. The prayer’s practice later ended under Pope Pius XI, and it was eventually removed from the Roman rite in 1985. Indeed, the Congregation or the Doctrine of the Faith considered it too dangerous for laymen to address Satan directly in this prayer, as there was a ‘non-denominational’ version.
Your most Reverend Excellency,Recent years have seen an increase in the number of prayer groups in the Church aimed at seeking deliverance from the influence of demons, while not actually engaging in real exorcisms. These meetings are led by lay people, even when a priest is present.As the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has been asked how one should view these facts, this Dicastery considers it necessary to inform Bishops of the following response:1. Canon 1172 of the Code of Canon Law states that no one can legitimately perform exorcisms over the possessed unless he has obtained special and express permission from the local Ordinary (§ 1), and states that this permission should be granted by the local Ordinary only to priests who are endowed with piety, knowledge, prudence and integrity of life (§ 2). Bishops are therefore strongly advised to stipulate that these norms be observed.2. From these prescriptions it follows that it is not even licit that the faithful use the formula of exorcism against Satan and the fallen angels, extracted from the one published by order of the Supreme Pontiff Leo XIII, and even less that they use the integral text of this exorcism. Bishops should take care to warn the faithful, if necessary, of this.3. Finally, for the same reasons, Bishops are asked to be vigilant so that – even in cases that do not concern true demonic possession – those who are without the due faculty may not conduct meetings during which invocations, to obtain release, are uttered in which demons are questioned directly and their identity sought to be known.Drawing attention to these norms, however, should in no way distance the faithful from praying that, as Jesus taught us, they may be delivered from evil (cf. Mt 6:13). Finally, Pastors may take this opportunity to recall what the Tradition of the Church teaches concerning the role proper to the sacraments and the intercession of the Blessed Virgin Mary, of the Angels and Saints in the Christian’s spiritual battle against evil spirits.I take the opportunity to express my deepest respects,Your most esteemed in Christ,
I'm sorry but you are just making stuff up and redefining terms on a whim.
Interesting. Normally, this might border on detraction, but I think that, since he's a public figure who has a lot of influence on people, i.e. perhaps persuading them that the Conciliar Church and the NOM are A-OK, reinforcing this constant notion of "obedience" to the Conciliar bishop being required for efficacious exorcism (in fact relating that ruse once about how the demon "left immediately" after, having asked Ripperger on whose authority he was performing the exorcism [as if he didn't know, right?], and the Ripperger responding the Bishop's name, this demon (pretended to) leave "immediately". Then he's encouraging the Laity to directly engage demons and to indulge in excessive curiosity about them. He excoriated even the Motu Trads for being uncharitable and impure ... for criticizing the Conciliar "Magisterium". He seems to be monetizing his popularity that was created due to the sensationalism caused by dealing with the subjects that a lot of people are curious about. I think that he was right about the jab, except some of his reasoning sounded a bit off (strange) when he spoke of "circuмstances" that might effect the morality of a decision. Lots of bad fruits with this man, and he should be avoided by the "Trads".What I posted is publicly known in Idaho and he is a public figure so I don't believe it to be detractionary (is that a word?). And since Fr Ripperger's judgment is being called into question I thought it relevant information.
"And John, answering, said: Master, we saw a certain man casting out devils in thy name: and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said to him: Forbid him not: for he that is not against you is for you.So is the Church wrong to forbid everyone to cast out devils except exorcists appointed by the bishop?
Luke 9:49 (DR)
Some sedevacantists (certainly not all) want to make anyone who is not a sedevacantist look bad. Especially if they are affiliated with the conciliar church, and not open to sedevacantism. I suspect that that's the problem here, for some, with Fr. Ripperger.I just looked up how to use the Ignore feature. For anyone else who just felt the need to engage this option, the way to do it is to hover your mouse over "Profile", and go down to Summary. Hover over "Modify Profile" and select "Buddies/Ignore List", and go to "Edit Ignore List." Type "Meg" in the "Member" field, and click "Add".
I just looked up how to use the Ignore feature. For anyone else who just felt the need to engage this option, the way to do it is to hover your mouse over "Profile", and go down to Summary. Hover over "Modify Profile" and select "Buddies/Ignore List", and go to "Edit Ignore List." Type "Meg" in the "Member" field, and click "Add".
Problem solved.
Good advice. I've used the ignore feature many times. It can be very helpful.What does that have to do with the topic at hand? You need to set aside your bias against sedevacantism. Every other post is some complaint about sedevacantists from you. :facepalm:
Though the ignore feature may prove useful in ignoring certain annoying forum members (like me), it will not solve the problem of too many sedevacantists on this forum.
So is the Church wrong to forbid everyone to cast out devils except exorcists appointed by the bishop?Solemn Exorcism is not the same as private Adjuration. Fr Ripperger has never implied otherwise.
What does that have to do with the topic at hand? You need to set aside your bias against sedevacantism. Every other post is some complaint about sedevacantists from you. :facepalm:
You will have to view my post that was previous to the post you quoted, in order to see what it has to do with the thread. Did you miss it?No, I didn't miss it. My point being that you, once again, are shifting the discussion to us evil "sedevacantists" as some cause behind disapproval of some Conciliar cleric or teaching. No one was talking about the subject of sedevacantism, or the group of Catholics who adhere to it, until you decided to bring it up.
No, I didn't miss it. My point being that you, once again, are shifting the discussion to us evil "sedevacantists" as some cause behind disapproval of some Conciliar cleric or teaching. No one was talking about the subject of sedevacantism, or the group of Catholics who adhere to it, until you decided to bring it up.
So is the Church wrong to forbid everyone to cast out devils except exorcists appointed by the bishop?
Glad you didn't miss it. I'm very aware that no one was talking about the sedevacantist side of it, nor would it have likely ever been brought up. In my opinion (which, I am aware, isn't worth anything on a sedevacantist forum such as this), the only reason that Fr. Ripperger is out favor with some here is that he is not open to sedevacantism. If he were, it would be quite a different story.No. It wouldn't. Stop talking out of your rear and get over your hateful obsession with "sedevacantists".
Indeed, we have another closeted Prot believing that his interpretation of Scripture trumps the teaching and the practice of the Church.Honestly, outside of Ripperger, I can't really think of any other precedent, that I have come across, that permits the laity to do what Ripperger claims to teach. Sure, the Warrens claim having efficacy in their exorcism prayers, but these tend to be the standards of the Ave, Pater, and Saint Michael more than something out of the Ritual Romanum (which they know they cannot use themselves). Citing the disciples and associates of Christ in the Gospels performing lay-exorcisms is an extraordinary exception, not a norm. Traditionally, the standard is a valid priest with jurisdiction from his bishop.
Look, even RATZINGER rejected the notion of the Laity attempting to perform exorcism-type "deliverance" rites. He rejects lay "deliverance" using the exact same term that Ripperge uses. I'd love to hear Ripperger's explanation of why he's promoting something condemned by the "authority" (as he holds it to be) of the Church ... while condemning "Trads" from rejecting that same authority.
Nor was Ratzinger JUST talking about deliverance "groups", but it's clear tha he was objecting to laity involved in such things, period, basically saying the same thing that the saints have said ... that we the laity should have recourse to Our Lady and the Angels for protection against demons ... and should not be enngaging them as if we had authority over them somehow.
No. It wouldn't. Stop talking out of your rear and get over your hateful obsession with "sedevacantists".
Honestly, outside of Ripperger, I can't really think of any other precedent, that I have come across, that permits the laity to do what Ripperger claims to teach. Sure, the Warrens claim having efficacy in their exorcism prayers, but these tend to be the standards of the Ave, Pater, and Saint Michael more than something out of the Ritual Romanum (which they know they cannot use themselves). Citing the disciples and associates of Christ in the Gospels performing lay-exorcisms is an extraordinary exception, not a norm. Traditionally, the standard is a valid priest with jurisdiction from his bishop.
The lack of jurisdiction and Orders would explain why these demons are so difficult to exorcise these days: as, in my view, a decrease in grace (via scattered Shepherds) could translate to an increase of Satan's dominion over men. So Ripperger spending months to years exorcizing a possessed person (if they are truly delivered in the end) would most likely have to do with a lack of proper Orders than anything.
The accounts of Bishop McKenna, or other traditionally-ordained clerics, involvement in exorcisms never seem to last that long; if the accounts of the Warrens and others are to be believed.
BTW, I'm no fan of the Warrens whatsoever. I think they exhibited and promoted an unhealthy curiosity about the occult, and have probably caused more people to get ensnared in it than they helped get out of it.I think the positive of the Warrens' popularity comes from what you stated about making people realize the preternatural is real. Other than that, I do share your sentiments. I remember watching a tour of their "occult museum" after seeing the Conjuring 3, and thinking to myself how much better it would be if that place burned down rather than serve as a curiosity. It's right back to the same error that comes from the vain curiosity of programs like Ghost Adventures or Ghost Hunters, which encourages people to open doors to the demonic by acknowledging preternatural events. And, in turn, puffs up Catholics to think they can fight the Devil directly. Forgetting just how unimaginably powerful they are as angelic minds.
"I answer that, As stated in the preceding article, there are two ways of adjuring: one by way of prayer or inducement through reverence of some holy thing: the other by way of compulsion. In the first way it is not lawful to adjure the demons because such a way seems to savor of benevolence or friendship, which it is unlawful to bear towards the demons. As to the second kind of adjuration, which is by compulsion, we may lawfully use it for some purposes, and not for others. For during the course of this life the demons are our adversaries: and their actions are not subject to our disposal but to that of God and the holy angels, because, as Augustine says (De Trin. iii, 4), "the rebel spirit is ruled by the just spirit." Accordingly we may repulse the demons, as being our enemies, by adjuring them through the power of God's name, lest they do us harm of soul or body, in accord with the Divine power given by Christ, as recorded by Lk. 10:19: "Behold, I have given you power to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and upon all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall hurt you."And Lad, you say,"St. Thomas explained that it's grave sin to issue a deprecatory request to demons because it puts us in fellowship with them."
Aquin.: SMT SS Q[90] A[2] Body Para. 2/2
Hello Ladislaus.
Did Fr. Ripperger or the Doloran Fathers respond to your letter?
One saint theorized that a major reason the Demons rebelled against God was due to the knowledge that these human woman would be exalted over them and crowned their Queen.
I believe this is true and I have heard it a number of times
but I have no reference.
Do you?
Lest this topic get buried in the lengthy argument on the other thread,
Not only is the entire terminology of "Deliverance" very Protestant (that term is not known to be in use by Catholics ... until Father Ripperger popularized it with his book), but the very theology implied in having laymen contront demons is highly Protestant. Prots believe that laymen, through their personal "priesthood", have similar power to that of priests, and therefore have the power to command demons simply by virtue of being "Christians".
Catholics, on the other hand, have always traditionally approached God with humility, invoking Our Lady, the angels, and the saints for their INTERCESSION. And that has also been the Traditional attitude toward demons, that, in humility, and acknowledgement of our unworthiness, weakness, and humility, do not presume to deal directly with demons, but pray for God to deal with them.
If you have not ever been confronted by demons, it's difficult to understand how unpleasant it is.It's awful. Like a suffocating pressure. I 100% agree with your tactics because I've used them and they undoubtedly work. Do not tempt them or even acknowledge them, just pray and use sacramentals.
Fr. Ripperger was such a scandal at St. Joan of Arc in Coeur d'Alene, ID that a large group of his parishioners appealed to the bishop to remove or discipline him. The complaints involved financial mishandlings and inappropriate friendships with female parishioners. He even had a minion harassing people on his behalf and police were involved. This man is a public figure in rad-trad circles. Fr. Ripperger was transferred to Tulsa shortly after the meeting with St. Joan of Arc parishioners with the bishop.Without facts and sources this is unfounded gossip.
It's awful. Like a suffocating pressure. I 100% agree with your tactics because I've used them and they undoubtedly work. Do not tempt them or even acknowledge them, just pray and use sacramentals.
I've never seen a pre-Vatican II "Exorcism" prayer fror use by the Laity. Of the "Exorcism" prayer tied to Pope Leo XIII, only the prayer to St. Michael is approved for use by the Laity, but the private / minor Exorcism part at the end comes with a WARNING (correctly so) that it is to be said by priests only. It is termed "private" only because it's not the formal prayer in the Approved Official Exorcism Rite. There's the Long Form of the St. Michael prayer, which has not adjuration of demons, but the accompanying Exorcist Adjuration is not intended for use by the faithful.
“O Glorious Prince of the heavenly host, St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in the battle and in the terrible warfare that we are waging against the principalities and powers, against the rulers of this world of darkness, against the evil spirits. Come to the aid of man, whom Almighty God created immortal, made in His own image and likeness, and redeemed at a great price from the tyranny of Satan.
“Fight this day the battle of the Lord, together with the holy angels, as already thou hast fought the leader of the proud angels, Lucifer, and his apostate host, who were powerless to resist thee, nor was there place for them any longer in Heaven. That cruel, ancient serpent, who is called the devil or Satan who seduces the whole world, was cast into the abyss with his angels. Behold, this primeval enemy and slayer of men has taken courage. Transformed into an angel of light, he wanders about with all the multitude of wicked spirits, invading the earth in order to blot out the name of God and of His Christ, to seize upon, slay and cast into eternal perdition souls destined for the crown of eternal glory. This wicked dragon pours out, as a most impure flood, the venom of his malice on men of depraved mind and corrupt heart, the spirit of lying, of impiety, of blasphemy, and the pestilent breath of impurity, and of every vice and iniquity.
“These most crafty enemies have filled and inebriated with gall and bitterness the Church, the spouse of the immaculate Lamb, and have laid impious hands on her most sacred possessions. In the Holy Place itself, where the See of Holy Peter and the Chair of Truth has been set up as the light of the world, they have raised the throne of their abominable impiety, with the iniquitous design that when the Pastor has been struck, the sheep may be scattered.
“Arise then, O invincible Prince, bring help against the attacks of the lost spirits to the people of God, and give them the victory. They venerate thee as their protector and patron; in thee holy Church glories as her defense against the malicious power of hell; to thee has God entrusted the souls of men to be established in heavenly beatitude. Oh, pray to the God of peace that He may put Satan under our feet, so far conquered that he may no longer be able to hold men in captivity and harm the Church. Offer our prayers in the sight of the Most High, so that they may quickly find mercy in the sight of the Lord; and vanquishing the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, do thou again make him captive in the abyss, that he may no longer seduce the nations. Amen.
V. Behold the Cross of the Lord; be scattered ye hostile powers.
R. The Lion of the tribe of Judah has conquered, the root of David.
V. Let Thy mercies be upon us, O Lord.
R. As we have hoped in Thee.
V. O Lord, hear my prayer.
R. And let my cry come unto Thee.
Let us pray.
O God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, we call upon Thy holy Name, and as supplicants, we implore Thy clemency, that by the intercession of Mary, ever Virgin Immaculate and our Mother, and of the glorious St. Michael the Archangel, Thou wouldst deign to help us against Satan and all the other unclean spirits who wander about the world for the injury of the human race and the ruin of souls. Amen.”
Ahhh, regarding the long prayer, is the below prayer fine to say? I've been doing it every morning and the short version at night.
No, I can't find it offhand, but I've heard and seen it cited. I can't recall which saint it was who so theorized. Or was it Katherine Emmerick / Mary of Agreda or one of those private revelations.I would have thought that the devil and co were too 'smart' to rebel against God. I mean why throw yourself into a pit of fire?
This rather makes sense to me, that they would despise the thought of being made subject to a human being, who would be their Queen. I mean, after all, they would realize with their angelic intellects their subordination to God, since after all they did not create themselves. If they would be so affected, even in the case of someone as exalted as Our Blessed Mother, imagine their reaction to a sinful lay person attempting to issue commands to them, say, with Pablo the Mexican attempting to lord it over them and issue commands.
I would be surprised if Pablo did not come under serious diabolical influence (and/or control) as a direct result of his "lay exorcist" activities. Perhaps some Traditional priest should look into whether or not it would make sense to perform at least a minor exorcism on the man.
Lots of insinuating and assumptions regarding Fr Ripperger..
I keep seeing.... "Instead of using his prayer recommendations, instead invoke Our Lady, Our Lord, St Michael, our Gardian Angel. Use sacramentals as well."
Well, fact is, Fr Ripperger recommends precisely those things. Actually, I can't find a single spiritual warfare prayer in his book Deliverance Prayers For Use By The Laity that doesn't invoke one or more of those listed above to do the binding or adjurations.
I'd like to know what issues one may have with the Auxilium Christianorum prayers for example.
http://auxiliumchristianorum.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/dailyprayers.zip
One thing to note. There are two books of Auxilium Christianorum prayers. One for Clergy and one for Laity. If one happens upon the version for the clergy online and doesn't realize it's not the Laity version, then yes, it can be confusing.
Here is the clergy version..
http://auxiliumchristianorum.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/dailyprayerspriests.pdf
.
This is absurd. Prayers need to be approved by the Church. Ripperger's prayers do not have Church approval. We don't need to prove there's anything wrong with them.
And again, we already have a vast number of prayers approved by the Church: the Our Father, Hail Mary, the rosary, all the hundreds of prayers in the Raccolta, Stations of the Cross, the litanies, etc. These prayers are proven to be good and eminently holy. Most of them even have indulgences attached. When you pray the so-called prayers of "Fr." Ripperger, that is time taken away from praying prayers that are known to be good. Why would anyone do this?
This is absurd. Prayers need to be approved by the Church. Ripperger's prayers do not have Church approval. We don't need to prove there's anything wrong with them.
He adapted some Protestant prayers for "Deliverance" for his book. Why? Because there's no concept of "Deliverance" in traditional Catholic theology. It's an entirely Protestant notion. Some of the prayers are OK, even if not approved, but the ones I have problems with are the "adjuration" prayers, where the faithful are issuing commands to demons as if they have authority over them. They don't. Father Ripperger misinterpreted a passage in St. Alphonsus to come up with this notion. It suffices for us lay faithful to pray to Our Lady, the Terror of Demons, St. Michael and the other angels and saints, and to make use of the Sacramentals of the Church to ward off evil. It's pretty arrogant, if you think about it, to pretend that our adjurations / commands to the demons have more effect than Our Lady, St. Michael, etc.Because Ripperger is a televangelist in Catholic garb. Incredibly popular in media, almost a celebrity in some circles, and basically making up his own theology that people go with.
Because Ripperger is a televangelist in Catholic garb. Incredibly popular in media, almost a celebrity in some circles, and basically making up his own theology that people go with.
Between these two things, it leads to lay people developing excessive curiosity about and engagement with demonic forces ... and THAT is where the danger is. St. Francis de Sales likened demons to ferocious dogs on a chain. They'll bark and growl and attempt to terrify you, but they're on God's chain and cannot do anything more than what God permits. He advises ignoring them and turning to God instead. It's when we develop a curiosity about this dog and decide to approach and draw closer that he might actually become a threat to us.
All of the deliverance prayers recommended by use of the laity are always prayed in the name of Our Lord Jesus, or His Blessed Mother. Or through the intercession of St. Michael and other saints.
While I agree that the attempts of some of these pseudo-trad priests to put traditionalists in their place and get them to check their egos, borders on slander a la Jorge, and that Fr. Ripperger has been one of these, I don’t find that he blames everything that goes wrong in your life on demons. In fact, he states the world and the flesh are just as much the cause of sin as is the Devil, in one of his most popular early talks. “The Devil is not under every stone. He’s under every other one.”
While there are some prayers in his book that the faithful may use, the problem is with the prayers in there where the faithful are issuing commands to the demons. Father bases this on a mistaken principle, that has no basis in Traditional Catholic theology, that we may issue commands to demons if they are afflicting those over whom we have authority. But the Traditional teachers say you should have authority over the DEMONS that you're attempting to adjure (issue commands to). So, the analogy I make is that I see a thief trying to steal my car. I run over there and order him to stop because it's my car. Chances are that he'll just kill me and continue taking the car. Simply because we have authority over the individuals being afflicted by the demons, it does NOT follow that we have authority over the demons themselves. St. Alphonsus said that one should be an Exorcist (i.e. have order of Exorcist or higher). Demons are in a state of rebellion against God's authority. Now, if we pray to the Guardian Angels of those who are under our authority and are being afflicted, those Angels WILL in fact heed our authority because, unlike the demons, they recognize and respect our authority, since it is the authority of God Himself as communicated to us.
While one might speculate that this might be the case, I have found no principle in Traditional Catholic theology demonstrating that our authority over afflicted individuals puts us in a position to issue commands to the demons themselves. Father Ripperger at one point stated that he hasn't seen the demons engaging in any "retaliation" as a result, but that's a very anecdotal consideration. I have heard some individuals stating that they seemed to experience or sense an increase in diabolical activity ... though that too is anecdotal.
In any case, I have yet to find a theological principle to back this up. There's a huge danger here if he's wrong (and I think he is). Why not just pray to Our Lady, the Terror or Demons; demons flee from her presence? Why not make use of the Sacramentals, Holy Water, Blessed Salt, Saint Benedict medals, etc.? Why not adjure the Guardian Angels of those being afflicted? These latter will in fact heed your authority and are perfectly capable of shutting down the demonic activity? What's the upside of issuing direct commands? None. What's the downside? It could be catastrophic.
Now, Father Ripperger asserts that the principle can be found in St. Alphonsus, but I reviewed the citation in Latin and found that he was seriously misinterpreting it.
I've listened to many of his talks, and while he does pay lip service to the notion that not every ill is caused by demons, his emphasis is such as to convey precisely the opposite. He gives the IMPRESSION that nearly every negative thing in your life has a demon behind it. He has like a 10-page-long list of different spirits, for just about everything, including physical ailments like "GI Problems". And he even hints at this in the statement you made that the devil is under every other stone. It engenders a mentality that can quickly become very unhealthy. So my car broke down ... could it have been a demon? I lost my job ... demon? I developed GI problems ... demon? Even IF a demon were proximately responsible, it is GOD WHO PERMITTED IT, and therefore my car breaking down or my GI problems are GOD'S will for me.
Hell was created after the angels sinned. When they rebelled, they didn’t have hell fire as a consequence. This makes sense because the angels, being pure intellect (ie no emotions) needed to either choose God or themselves (ie pride). The bad angels chose themselves. Hell was not part of the decision.Is that so Pax? I think maybe it was in Mystical City of God, or I heard it someplace a long time ago that the angels knew exactly what their fate would be. It's been ages but IIRC, God created and then showed them hell, showed them all exactly where He would send them if they persisted in their rebellion. So they knew well their fate but their pride was so strong, all that mattered to them was their belief that they would defeat God, that they would win, even if not till the end.
We can command them to leave only in the name of Our Lord ...
Are you saying that we should just suffer everything that comes along without ever considering that there may be a diabolic influence? You give the impression that we should just suffer quietly, but isn't that what the puritans believed?
No we can't. Because we don't have authority over them, we can't command them. It doesn't matter if you add "in the name of Our Lord" ... it is still you who is attempting to do the commanding.
Okay, when an exorcist priest commands the demon to leave in the name of Our Lord, who is it that is causing the demon to leave (if it does leave)? Is it Our Lord, or the priest who causes the demon to actually leave?
Where did I say that? We pray to God, Our Lady, the angels and saints to "deliver" us and bring us relief. But we do not command demons whom we imagine to be the cause of such things.
Church acts through the Exorcist priest. It's because he's ordained by the Church to have that authority not because he invokes the name of the Lord. Your attitude is very similar to that of the Prots, who all claim power over demons when invoking the name of the Lord, holding to some "priesthood" of believers concept.
While there are some prayers in his book that the faithful may use, the problem is with the prayers in there where the faithful are issuing commands to the demons. Father bases this on a mistaken principle, that has no basis in Traditional Catholic theology, that we may issue commands to demons if they are afflicting those over whom we have authority. But the Traditional teachers say you should have authority over the DEMONS that you're attempting to adjure (issue commands to). So, the analogy I make is that I see a thief trying to steal my car. I run over there and order him to stop because it's my car. Chances are that he'll just kill me and continue taking the car. Simply because we have authority over the individuals being afflicted by the demons, it does NOT follow that we have authority over the demons themselves. St. Alphonsus said that one should be an Exorcist (i.e. have order of Exorcist or higher). Demons are in a state of rebellion against God's authority. Now, if we pray to the Guardian Angels of those who are under our authority and are being afflicted, those Angels WILL in fact heed our authority because, unlike the demons, they recognize and respect our authority, since it is the authority of God Himself as communicated to us.
While one might speculate that this might be the case, I have found no principle in Traditional Catholic theology demonstrating that our authority over afflicted individuals puts us in a position to issue commands to the demons themselves. Father Ripperger at one point stated that he hasn't seen the demons engaging in any "retaliation" as a result, but that's a very anecdotal consideration. I have heard some individuals stating that they seemed to experience or sense an increase in diabolical activity ... though that too is anecdotal.
In any case, I have yet to find a theological principle to back this up. There's a huge danger here if he's wrong (and I think he is). Why not just pray to Our Lady, the Terror or Demons; demons flee from her presence? Why not make use of the Sacramentals, Holy Water, Blessed Salt, Saint Benedict medals, etc.? Why not adjure the Guardian Angels of those being afflicted? These latter will in fact heed your authority and are perfectly capable of shutting down the demonic activity? What's the upside of issuing direct commands? None. What's the downside? It could be catastrophic.
Now, Father Ripperger asserts that the principle can be found in St. Alphonsus, but I reviewed the citation in Latin and found that he was seriously misinterpreting it.
| Ecce Crucem Domini! Fugite partes adversae! Vicit Leo de tribu Iuda, Radix David! Alleluia! | Behold the Cross of the Lord! Be gone all evil powers! The Lion of the tribe of Judah, The root of David has conquered! Alleluia! |
I've listened to many of his talks, and while he does pay lip service to the notion that not every ill is caused by demons, his emphasis is such as to convey precisely the opposite. He gives the IMPRESSION that nearly every negative thing in your life has a demon behind it. He has like a 10-page-long list of different spirits, for just about everything, including physical ailments like "GI Problems". And he even hints at this in the statement you made that the devil is under every other stone. It engenders a mentality that can quickly become very unhealthy. So my car broke down ... could it have been a demon? I lost my job ... demon? I developed GI problems ... demon? Even IF a demon were proximately responsible, it is GOD WHO PERMITTED IT, and therefore my car breaking down or my GI problems are GOD'S will for me.I appreciate this very important warning, we were looking to buy his book. I've listened to several of his sermons and something seemed off but I couldn't define it. You have done that for us. Thank you.
I appreciate this very important warning, we were looking to buy his book. I've listened to several of his sermons and something seemed off but I couldn't define it. You have done that for us. Thank you.
The Holy Rosary is the most indulgenced prayer in the Church, except for Holy Mass.Sorry but the most highly indulgenced prayer in the Church is and always has been the Stations of the Cross, check any Raccolta.
P. Ripperger seems to make strong claims from his experience as an exorcist though as well as others in the Novus Ordo. From what he said, Fr. Vincent Palao wanted to start an order like his, the Dolorans.
Would you say they are putting themselves also at risk in their work, Ladislaus?
There is this impression that they know what they are doing.
So, to reiterate briefly, St. Alphonsus distinguishes between 1) issuing commands and 2) making requests. He stated (and cited St. Thomas also) that it's grave sin to make requests of demons, as it engages the individual in a sort of fellowship with the demons. That leaves issuing commands. With regard to issuing commands, St. Alphonsus says that commands can only be issued by someone in authority to those under his authority. So, for instance, a bishop may issue commands to priests under his authority, or parents to their children, etc. Then he says that Exorcists may issue commands to demons because they have authority over them on account of the Church. At NO POINT does St. Alphonsus state that we can issue commands to to those not under our authority (i.e. to demons) simply because they are afflicting someone who IS under our authority.
What are you talking about? We were discussing laymen issuing commands to demons, not priests. Of course, that would depend upon whether you believe Father Ripperger et al. are actually priests (or at least Exorcists). If they aren't, the devil could play along in an attempt to legitimize NO "Holy Orders".
Okay, not only does Fr Ripperger join together with Charismatics in the Novus Ordo
but now he is encouraging people to become their own pope
just like Protestants:
New Fr. Ripperger: “You CANNOT be ignorant of your faith. You absolutely HAVE to know the distinctions of when you’re bound to follow what the Pope says & when you’re not. You have to know the *different degrees* of papal pronouncements to know how much you’re bound to believe.”
https://twitter.com/chooselife88/status/1673369379206045696
Sigh, it's not hard. It's either infallible which requires full assent of faith,
or it's ordinary magisterium which requires submission of mind, intellect and will.
(https://i.imgur.com/TmBxJ8k.png)
Fr. Ripperger was such a scandal at St. Joan of Arc in Coeur d'Alene, ID that a large group of his parishioners appealed to the bishop to remove or discipline him. The complaints involved financial mishandlings and inappropriate friendships with female parishioners. He even had a minion harassing people on his behalf and police were involved. This man is a public figure in rad-trad circles. Fr. Ripperger was transferred to Tulsa shortly after the meeting with St. Joan of Arc parishioners with the bishop.Wow... this is the first I've ever heard of this. I saw a video that claimed he was removed simply because he was doing his duty. Is there anywhere there is more information on the truth of the situation?