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Author Topic: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons  (Read 14523 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
« Reply #75 on: June 20, 2023, 12:21:02 PM »
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  • All of the deliverance prayers recommended by use of the laity are always prayed in the name of Our Lord Jesus, or His Blessed Mother. Or through the intercession of St. Michael and other saints.

    While there are some prayers in his book that the faithful may use, the problem is with the prayers in there where the faithful are issuing commands to the demons.  Father bases this on a mistaken principle, that has no basis in Traditional Catholic theology, that we may issue commands to demons if they are afflicting those over whom we have authority.  But the Traditional teachers say you should have authority over the DEMONS that you're attempting to adjure (issue commands to).  So, the analogy I make is that I see a thief trying to steal my car.  I run over there and order him to stop because it's my car.  Chances are that he'll just kill me and continue taking the car.  Simply because we have authority over the individuals being afflicted by the demons, it does NOT follow that we have authority over the demons themselves.  St. Alphonsus said that one should be an Exorcist (i.e. have order of Exorcist or higher).  Demons are in a state of rebellion against God's authority.  Now, if we pray to the Guardian Angels of those who are under our authority and are being afflicted, those Angels WILL in fact heed our authority because, unlike the demons, they recognize and respect our authority, since it is the authority of God Himself as communicated to us.

    While one might speculate that this might be the case, I have found no principle in Traditional Catholic theology demonstrating that our authority over afflicted individuals puts us in a position to issue commands to the demons themselves.  Father Ripperger at one point stated that he hasn't seen the demons engaging in any "retaliation" as a result, but that's a very anecdotal consideration.  I have heard some individuals stating that they seemed to experience or sense an increase in diabolical activity ... though that too is anecdotal.

    In any case, I have yet to find a theological principle to back this up.  There's a huge danger here if he's wrong (and I think he is).  Why not just pray to Our Lady, the Terror or Demons; demons flee from her presence?  Why not make use of the Sacramentals, Holy Water, Blessed Salt, Saint Benedict medals, etc.?  Why not adjure the Guardian Angels of those being afflicted?  These latter will in fact heed your authority and are perfectly capable of shutting down the demonic activity?  What's the upside of issuing direct commands?  None.  What's the downside?  It could be catastrophic.

    Now, Father Ripperger asserts that the principle can be found in St. Alphonsus, but I reviewed the citation in Latin and found that he was seriously misinterpreting it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
    « Reply #76 on: June 20, 2023, 12:31:16 PM »
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  • While I agree that the attempts of some of these pseudo-trad priests to put traditionalists in their place and get them to check their egos, borders on slander a la Jorge, and that Fr. Ripperger has been one of these, I don’t find that he blames everything that goes wrong in your life on demons.  In fact, he states the world and the flesh are just as much the cause of sin as is the Devil, in one of his most popular early talks.  “The Devil is not under every stone.  He’s under every other one.”

    I've listened to many of his talks, and while he does pay lip service to the notion that not every ill is caused by demons, his emphasis is such as to convey precisely the opposite.  He gives the IMPRESSION that nearly every negative thing in your life has a demon behind it.  He has like a 10-page-long list of different spirits, for just about everything, including physical ailments like "GI Problems".  And he even hints at this in the statement you made that the devil is under every other stone.  It engenders a mentality that can quickly become very unhealthy.  So my car broke down ... could it have been a demon?  I lost my job ... demon?  I developed GI problems ... demon?  Even IF a demon were proximately responsible, it is GOD WHO PERMITTED IT, and therefore my car breaking down or my GI problems are GOD'S will for me.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
    « Reply #77 on: June 20, 2023, 12:34:41 PM »
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  • While there are some prayers in his book that the faithful may use, the problem is with the prayers in there where the faithful are issuing commands to the demons.  Father bases this on a mistaken principle, that has no basis in Traditional Catholic theology, that we may issue commands to demons if they are afflicting those over whom we have authority.  But the Traditional teachers say you should have authority over the DEMONS that you're attempting to adjure (issue commands to).  So, the analogy I make is that I see a thief trying to steal my car.  I run over there and order him to stop because it's my car.  Chances are that he'll just kill me and continue taking the car.  Simply because we have authority over the individuals being afflicted by the demons, it does NOT follow that we have authority over the demons themselves.  St. Alphonsus said that one should be an Exorcist (i.e. have order of Exorcist or higher).  Demons are in a state of rebellion against God's authority.  Now, if we pray to the Guardian Angels of those who are under our authority and are being afflicted, those Angels WILL in fact heed our authority because, unlike the demons, they recognize and respect our authority, since it is the authority of God Himself as communicated to us.

    While one might speculate that this might be the case, I have found no principle in Traditional Catholic theology demonstrating that our authority over afflicted individuals puts us in a position to issue commands to the demons themselves.  Father Ripperger at one point stated that he hasn't seen the demons engaging in any "retaliation" as a result, but that's a very anecdotal consideration.  I have heard some individuals stating that they seemed to experience or sense an increase in diabolical activity ... though that too is anecdotal.

    In any case, I have yet to find a theological principle to back this up.  There's a huge danger here if he's wrong (and I think he is).  Why not just pray to Our Lady, the Terror or Demons; demons flee from her presence?  Why not make use of the Sacramentals, Holy Water, Blessed Salt, Saint Benedict medals, etc.?  Why not adjure the Guardian Angels of those being afflicted?  These latter will in fact heed your authority and are perfectly capable of shutting down the demonic activity?  What's the upside of issuing direct commands?  None.  What's the downside?  It could be catastrophic.

    Now, Father Ripperger asserts that the principle can be found in St. Alphonsus, but I reviewed the citation in Latin and found that he was seriously misinterpreting it.

    I don't believe that we have any authority over demons. None at all. And I don't recall that Fr. Ripperger says that we have authority over them. We can command them to leave only in the name of Our Lord, or Our Lady, since she has been given the authority to crush satan's head. Exorcists do not command anything in their own name or by their own power, and the laity should not either.

    I believe that's why God allows the diabolic to influence us, so that we will turn to Him in prayer. And it's for our own sanctification ultimately.

    Fr. Ripperger certainly has his faults, and I do not look up to him as anything other than having more knowledge than I do on the subject. But of course trads always believe we know best, no matter what, and we want to be self-sufficient in everything. If the prayers he has recommended do not work, I'll be the first to admit it.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
    « Reply #78 on: June 20, 2023, 12:53:02 PM »
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  • I've listened to many of his talks, and while he does pay lip service to the notion that not every ill is caused by demons, his emphasis is such as to convey precisely the opposite.  He gives the IMPRESSION that nearly every negative thing in your life has a demon behind it.  He has like a 10-page-long list of different spirits, for just about everything, including physical ailments like "GI Problems".  And he even hints at this in the statement you made that the devil is under every other stone.  It engenders a mentality that can quickly become very unhealthy.  So my car broke down ... could it have been a demon?  I lost my job ... demon?  I developed GI problems ... demon?  Even IF a demon were proximately responsible, it is GOD WHO PERMITTED IT, and therefore my car breaking down or my GI problems are GOD'S will for me.

    I've listened to many talks by Fr. Ripperger in the last few months, and I do not see where he blames or gives the impression that every ill is caused by demons. I certainly do not see every negative thing as being caused by demons after having listened to many talks by him. 

    Are you saying that we should just suffer everything that comes along without ever considering that there may be a diabolic influence? You give the impression that we should just suffer quietly, but isn't that what the puritans believed?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
    « Reply #79 on: June 20, 2023, 01:40:13 PM »
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  • Hell was created after the angels sinned.  When they rebelled, they didn’t have hell fire as a consequence.  This makes sense because the angels, being pure intellect (ie no emotions) needed to either choose God or themselves (ie pride).  The bad angels chose themselves.  Hell was not part of the decision. 
    Is that so Pax? I think maybe it was in Mystical City of God, or I heard it someplace a long time ago that the angels knew exactly what their fate would be. It's been ages but IIRC, God created and then showed them hell, showed them all exactly where He would send them if they persisted in their rebellion. So they knew well their fate but their pride was so strong, all that mattered to them was their belief that they would defeat God, that they would win, even if not till the end. 
     
     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
    « Reply #80 on: June 20, 2023, 04:17:20 PM »
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  • We can command them to leave only in the name of Our Lord ...

    No we can't.  Because we don't have authority over them, we can't command them.  It doesn't matter if you add "in the name of Our Lord" ... it is still you who is attempting to do the commanding.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
    « Reply #81 on: June 20, 2023, 04:18:49 PM »
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  • Are you saying that we should just suffer everything that comes along without ever considering that there may be a diabolic influence? You give the impression that we should just suffer quietly, but isn't that what the puritans believed?

    Where did I say that?  We pray to God, Our Lady, the angels and saints to "deliver" us and bring us relief.  But we do not command demons whom we imagine to be the cause of such things.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
    « Reply #82 on: June 20, 2023, 04:33:24 PM »
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  • No we can't.  Because we don't have authority over them, we can't command them.  It doesn't matter if you add "in the name of Our Lord" ... it is still you who is attempting to do the commanding.

    Okay, when an exorcist priest commands the demon to leave in the name of Our Lord, who is it that is causing the demon to leave (if it does leave)? Is it Our Lord, or the priest who causes the demon to actually leave?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
    « Reply #83 on: June 20, 2023, 04:43:02 PM »
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  • Okay, when an exorcist priest commands the demon to leave in the name of Our Lord, who is it that is causing the demon to leave (if it does leave)? Is it Our Lord, or the priest who causes the demon to actually leave?

    Church acts through the Exorcist priest.  It's because he's ordained by the Church to have that authority not because he invokes the name of the Lord.  Your attitude is very similar to that of the Prots, who all claim power over demons when invoking the name of the Lord, holding to some "priesthood" of believers concept.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
    « Reply #84 on: June 20, 2023, 04:44:40 PM »
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  • Where did I say that?  We pray to God, Our Lady, the angels and saints to "deliver" us and bring us relief.  But we do not command demons whom we imagine to be the cause of such things.

    If we are only imagining that demons are causing problems, then there won't be any effect whatsoever, of course, since the problem is only in our imagination. You seem to assume that it can only be an imaginary thing, and not real. And if that's the case, where is the problem?
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Meg

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    Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
    « Reply #85 on: June 20, 2023, 04:48:49 PM »
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  • Church acts through the Exorcist priest.  It's because he's ordained by the Church to have that authority not because he invokes the name of the Lord.  Your attitude is very similar to that of the Prots, who all claim power over demons when invoking the name of the Lord, holding to some "priesthood" of believers concept.

    You didn't answer the actual question. Who is it that is responsible to removing a demon, if it does leave? Is it the priest who does the removal, or is it Our Lord?

    Fr. Ripperger says that we may only command them to leave in a limited capacity - only for those family members such as our children, or spouse, siblings, or legally adopted children, or our own self.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29


    Offline ElwinRansom1970

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    • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
    Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
    « Reply #86 on: June 20, 2023, 08:40:07 PM »
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  • What has been the practice regarding commands over demons in the Eastern Churches, both Catholic and schismatic (since nearly all easterners were schismatic until modern times)?  Have they conceded authority to exorcise to laymen? If so, in what circuмstances? If not, case closed and avoid this deliverance prayer business unless you have been ordained or otherwise installed by competant ecclesiastical authority (which is absent in the Latin Church in these times).

    I always try to resolve these issues by looking at what has been the historic practices across the universal church.
    "I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
    Nicolás Gómez Dávila

    Offline Proselytize

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    Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
    « Reply #87 on: June 20, 2023, 08:51:53 PM »
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  • I was taught by a priest that when I was under difficult trials that I could pray
    “By the power of His precious blood and Passion and death on the cross, get back into Hell, Satan.”
    At that time in my life, it would bring peace. 

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
    « Reply #88 on: June 20, 2023, 10:58:21 PM »
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  • While there are some prayers in his book that the faithful may use, the problem is with the prayers in there where the faithful are issuing commands to the demons.  Father bases this on a mistaken principle, that has no basis in Traditional Catholic theology, that we may issue commands to demons if they are afflicting those over whom we have authority.  But the Traditional teachers say you should have authority over the DEMONS that you're attempting to adjure (issue commands to).  So, the analogy I make is that I see a thief trying to steal my car.  I run over there and order him to stop because it's my car.  Chances are that he'll just kill me and continue taking the car.  Simply because we have authority over the individuals being afflicted by the demons, it does NOT follow that we have authority over the demons themselves.  St. Alphonsus said that one should be an Exorcist (i.e. have order of Exorcist or higher).  Demons are in a state of rebellion against God's authority.  Now, if we pray to the Guardian Angels of those who are under our authority and are being afflicted, those Angels WILL in fact heed our authority because, unlike the demons, they recognize and respect our authority, since it is the authority of God Himself as communicated to us.

    While one might speculate that this might be the case, I have found no principle in Traditional Catholic theology demonstrating that our authority over afflicted individuals puts us in a position to issue commands to the demons themselves.  Father Ripperger at one point stated that he hasn't seen the demons engaging in any "retaliation" as a result, but that's a very anecdotal consideration.  I have heard some individuals stating that they seemed to experience or sense an increase in diabolical activity ... though that too is anecdotal.

    In any case, I have yet to find a theological principle to back this up.  There's a huge danger here if he's wrong (and I think he is).  Why not just pray to Our Lady, the Terror or Demons; demons flee from her presence?  Why not make use of the Sacramentals, Holy Water, Blessed Salt, Saint Benedict medals, etc.?  Why not adjure the Guardian Angels of those being afflicted?  These latter will in fact heed your authority and are perfectly capable of shutting down the demonic activity?  What's the upside of issuing direct commands?  None.  What's the downside?  It could be catastrophic.

    Now, Father Ripperger asserts that the principle can be found in St. Alphonsus, but I reviewed the citation in Latin and found that he was seriously misinterpreting it.

    Recall that Malachi Martin's popularity and credibility were linked to his story telling of exorcisms and the demonic.

    Father Ripperger has no doubt grown in popularity because of the same technique.


    And I always get suspicious when I see the Jєωιѕн, Opus Dei Catholic, Taylor Marshall hobnobbing with the neo-trad celebrities.






    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Re: WARNING: Avoid Ripperger's Prayers Adjuring Demons
    « Reply #89 on: June 21, 2023, 12:52:45 AM »
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  • What should we make of these prayers then?


    Ecce Crucem Domini!
    Fugite partes adversae!
    Vicit Leo de tribu Iuda,
    Radix David! Alleluia!
    Behold the Cross of the Lord!
    Be gone all evil powers!
    The Lion of the tribe of Judah,
    The root of David has conquered! Alleluia!


    https://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Sancti/SAntoniusDePadova/EcceCrucem.html


    Crux sacra sit mihi lux!

    Nunquam draco sit mihi dux!

    Vade retro Satana!
    Nunquam suade mihi vana!

    Sunt mala quae libas.
    Ipse venena bibas!



    The Holy Cross be my light;

    Never the dragon be my guide.


    Get behind me, Satan!
    Never suggest vanities to me!

    Evil are the things you pour,
    Drink your own poison!



    https://www.prayinglatin.com/st-benedict-medal/
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)