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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Stubborn on August 20, 2015, 10:06:56 AM

Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Stubborn on August 20, 2015, 10:06:56 AM: Not sure where to start on this ignorance, but this is appropriate: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

http://www.churchmilitant.com/video/episode/the-vortexdo-not-go-to-mass

The Vortex—Do NOT Go to Mass

Well, let's get straight to it, shall we?

The SSPX, the Society of St. Pius X — a group of clerics and bishops who do not exercise any legitimate ministry in the Catholic Church owing to their refusal to submit to the authority and jurisdiction of the Roman Pontiff, owing to their doctrinal issues regarding Vatican II — have recently posted a video which says all you need to hear.

By the way, that assessment of the SSPX is that of Pope Benedict, merely repeated by ChurchMilitant.com.

First, here are the words of the video, full screen so you can see them for yourselves.

"This is the reason Catholics are not obliged to attend the New Mass to fulfill their Sunday precept."

and

"The New Mass is to be completely avoided as they understand it is an offense against God."

Lest anyone say we are misquoting or misrepresenting these quotes, here they are straight from the mouth of an official spokesman priest for the SSPX U.S.A. District straight from the home page of the SSPX.

[Watch video here]http://gloria.tv/media/DrSLc9B5U6s

Earlier the priest says the New Mass is a danger to souls.

Now stop for a moment and consider what this priest is saying: The New Mass, meaning the Mass of Pope Paul VI, the Novus Ordo, is an offense against God. A Mass approved by and offered by the popes of Our Blessed Lord’s Holy Catholic Church and nearly every single bishop is an offense against God. Further, you are instructed not to go to Mass on Sunday if you must go to a Novus Ordo, New Mass.

This is a classic case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Sure, there are abuses that occur in the New Mass owing to all kinds of issues that we point out here on the Vortex all the time.

But those abuses are just that — abuses. And they are to be placed at the feet of errant bishops, lazy unfaithful priests, dissident theologians and so forth. But to tell Catholics to stay home and not attend Mass on Sunday and refuse to fulfill their Sunday obligation to assist at the sacrifice of the Mass is beyond imagining. To call the Mass an "offense against God"? Are you serious? To encourage people to commit mortal sin by refusing to fulfill their Sunday obligation?

But it's good that this video is out there because now the mask can finally be taken off this renegade outfit.

Let us share with you what Pope Benedict says of them: "In order to make this clear once again: Until the doctrinal questions are clarified, the Society has no canonical status in the Church, and its ministers do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church."

Those are the words of Peter himself, the Supreme Pontiff. He continued, "This will make it clear that the problems now to be addressed [by the SSPX] are essentially doctrinal in nature and concern primarily the acceptance of the Second Vatican Council."

The SSPX has played this game for decades now that their major issue has been the Traditional Mass versus the Novus Ordo, the New Mass. And while they certainly do have issues with the New Mass, their real problems — as the Pope himself says — are that they reject the Second Vatican Council — not have some questions about it, not want to sit down for discussions and more clarity, but doctrinal issues — doctrinal issues which place them outside the Church, not in full communion, as His Holiness phrased it — which is shorthand for schism.

The cheerleaders for the SSPX would have you believe that various prelates support them without an issue or doubt. Really?

Do they really expect that these prelates would support the notion that you must stay at home on Sunday and refuse to go to Mass and just say a private Rosary because the Mass you would be attending is the New Mass? Really?

Would these prelates that they pretend are all in on the SSPX — would they really say that the New Mass is an offense — an offense — against God?

Yet this is exactly, precisely, without any ambiguity, no clarification needed, what the official mouthpiece of the SSPX says — right out loud for the whole world to hear: The New Mass is to be avoided; you are not obliged to attend it on Sundays; it is an offense against God.

Even in the face of the Pope himself, they say they pray for him and put his picture up in their buildings, and they obey him — until they don't. They decry the Mass. They encourage people to mortal sin. They defy the Pope. They refuse the obedience due him.

If that doesn't constitute a schism, pray tell, what does?

Even Bp. Robert Morlino of Madison, Wisconsin had to issue a statement last week saying that this group — the SSPX — was to be avoided: "Have nothing to do with them."

He instructed:

The priests of the SSPX, because for the most part they were ordained illicitly (i.e., by a bishop who had no jurisdiction over them and no permission to ordain), they are suspended ipso facto from the moment of their ordination. ... [T]hey have no permission from the Church, which is necessary, to exercise priestly ministry. Their Masses are valid but are illegitimately celebrated. Catholics should not frequent SSPX chapels or seek sacraments from the priests of the SSPX.

Pray for the leaders of the SSPX to abandon their disobedience and for the supporters to understand (as so many of them already have) that when you cut yourself off from Peter, you are lost, no matter how Catholic it may look.

You don't break away from the Church to fix it. That's what Martin Luther did — a man who was every bit convinced of the rightness of his position as the SSPX is today.

Think about it: "The Mass is an offense against God." "It is to be completely avoided." "The Society has no canonical status in the Church." "Its ministers do not legitimately exercise any ministry in the Church." "The problems now to be addressed are essentially doctrinal."

That is quite a mouthful.

Whom do you choose? The Pope — or an outfit with no canonical status whose ministers do not legitimately exercise any ministry?
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: BTNYC on August 20, 2015, 12:17:15 PM: It truly is hard to know where to start.

He goes out of his way to quote Benedict XVI's precise wording on the status of the SSPX, which specifically omits the word "schismatic," then goes on to draw his own idiotic conclusions based on his own private interpretation (what was that about Martin Luther, Michael?) to call the Society "Schismatic" - something even Francis and his corhorts do not do.

If there's nothing whatsoever wrong with the New Mass, let him shut up about the TLM. Let him stop attending a "form" of the Mass that he obviously has no attachment to other than mere aesthetics. Let him stop calling the limitless variations of the NO "abuses" as well, for the very formless, option-filled nature of the NO made those variations possible in the first place. If he refuses to acknowledge the NO itself as the "abuse," then he should shut his mouth about "abuses."

finally, this:

Quote from: Michael "Flock of Seagulls" Voris

Whom do you choose? The Pope — or an outfit with no canonical status whose ministers do not legitimately exercise any ministry?

Whom do you choose, you half-century-old Justin Bieber simulacrum? Do you believe Catholics oughtn't to "breed like rabbits?" Do you believe that "youth unemployment" is the greatest evil in the world today? Do you believe that Catholics are too "obsessed" with abortion and sodomy? Do you believe Protestant sects are true Christian churches? Do you believe that divorced and "remarried" Catholics ought to be admitted to Holy Communion?

No. On all those matters, you've chosen to side with the SSPX over your beloved Francis. So take a dose of your own medicine, and shut your dishonest, duplicitous mouth about "abuses," and start toeing the party line like a the good little neocath Modernist water carrier you are.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: TKGS on August 20, 2015, 12:47:50 PM: Well...Voris is certainly spitting fire today! :scared2:

After listening to the video, it seems to me that IF Bergoglio is the pope and Ratzinger was the pope before him, Voris has some valid points. While Vatican officials have said that the SSPX is not in schism, at the same time they say that they have no legitimate ministry in the [Conciliar] Church.

Voris has a point that it is likely that none of the prelates who have said nice things about the Society would agree that the Novus Ordo is intrinsically evil, but then again, few of them would consider any religion's rites to be intrinsically evil either. The Indianapolis archbishop hosts an annual Interfaith Thanksgiving Service in his cathedral featuring Jews, Muslims, Protestants, and various Pagan religions praying to their various gods; the only religion never represented in the program is Catholicism.

From a point that Voris mentioned: Of course, every "abuse" that I've ever heard about in the Novus Ordo is, in fact, an allowable or fully authorized expression in the Novus Ordo religion. I used to think the same as Voris about these so-called abuses. But the fact of the matter is that I've never once heard about an abuse that could not be justified according to the Novus Ordo Missal's General Instructions or the various docuмents that have emanated from Rome since the early 1960s.

Voris has given his answer to the question about the Novus Ordo and he has pronounced it good. If the Conciliar Church is the Catholic Church, I don't know how anyone can argue with him.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Capt McQuigg on August 20, 2015, 01:10:01 PM: TKGS made a good point, but I'll paraphrase or change it slightly.

The post-Vatican II church, particularly the Vatican II docuмents, implies quite openly that other churches have the means of salvation. Even other religions that explicitly deny Our Lord have the means of salvation or are at least worthy of respect (wrap your head around that for a minute --- a religion that denies Our Lord, the Truth, the Way and the Life, is worthy of respect?) so then the SSPX states that the novus ordo worship service is an affront to God and that Catholics should avoid it. Upon hearing this, some novus ordites go into a hissy fit.

The novus ordo needs to walk the walk. The novus ordo teaches that, even if Conciliarism is the best, the other religions are all plenty good in and of themselves. Well then, they should live and let live and not try to frighten anyone away from a perfectly peaceful group of Traditional Catholic priests.

I am actually thinking of adding to this but won't at the moment. There is something else afoot that has me wondering what is really going on here but I can't put my fingers on it yet.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Stubborn on August 20, 2015, 01:10:31 PM: Yes, the two faced Voris whose been blowing hot and cold out of both sides of his mouth for years, has finally shown where he stands - with the modernists.

It's too bad the SSPX do not have the guts - and possibly the wherewithal - to invite Voris into their studio and record a video answering his ridiculous accusations which are fueled by a combination of his own stupidity and the NO induced ignorance he embraces and defends.

Not that it would make any difference to him, but it's something I'd watch with interest.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: 2Vermont on August 20, 2015, 03:19:34 PM: ....when you cut yourself off from Peter, you are lost, no matter how Catholic it may look

Too bad Voris doesn't realize that what he describes here is the Novus Ordo Church.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Matto on August 20, 2015, 03:39:57 PM: I do not understand how anyone can go to a traditional Mass and then a Novus Ordo Mass and not come out thinking the traditional Mass is good and the Novus Ordo Mass is bad. It seems like Novus Ordites are cursed with spiritual blindness.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: 2Vermont on August 20, 2015, 03:56:06 PM: Quote from: Matto
I do not understand how anyone can go to a traditional Mass and then a Novus Ordo Mass and not come out thinking the traditional Mass is good and the Novus Ordo Mass is bad. It seems like Novus Ordites are cursed with spiritual blindness.

I think those who think the Latin mass is "old" time religion will most certainly come away with that.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: cassini on August 20, 2015, 04:38:48 PM: In the first place, I am not pleased that the American SSPX should put out a video advising Catholics not to attend the NO under any circuмstances because of this or that. Catholics in their millions were doing that already without any prompting from the SSPX.

if Voris thinks being a Catholic is following a pope that brings the Catholic Church into disrepute every time he opens his mouth to reporters, well he can think again.

Our Lady at La Salette said 'Rome would lose the faith and become the seat of the anti-Christ.'

Wonder what Voris would say about that message from heaven? Some of us believe her prophesy has come true. Has Our Lady led us into schism?

I would not go to a NO to fulfil my Sunday obligation because of the fact that it has driven MILLIONS of Catholics out of Sunday Mass going. I do not want that to happen to me or my children. Instead I/we go to a Trent Mass found at a chapel given by a SSPX priest.

Finally, he quotes a bishop telling all Catholics NOT to go to as SSPX Mass. Voris said their Masses are valid Masses, so are a valid way to fulfil my Sunday obligation. But here is a Catholic Bishop being used by Voris to get me to commit Mortal Sin telling me NOT TO GO TO MY PREFERENCE SUNDAY MASS.

Does Voris not see the CONTRADICTION, the HYPOCRACY of his latest LETTER TO SUBSCRIBERS.

Finally I am willing to let God be our Judge. I do not challenge any pope's legitimacy but where Francis is concerned, only if he defined something using his infallible authority would I adhere to that. Until then, I will ignore that NON-DOGMATIC Council Vatican II stuff and Voris can twirl his pencil all he likes.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Stubborn on August 20, 2015, 04:42:03 PM: Quote from: Matto
I do not understand how anyone can go to a traditional Mass and then a Novus Ordo Mass and not come out thinking the traditional Mass is good and the Novus Ordo Mass is bad. It seems like Novus Ordites are cursed with spiritual blindness.

He just showed his hand, he is here to help the destroyers of the faith. All those who thought he was some sort of defender of the faith just witnessed a little of his sheep's clothing give way to expose a little of the wolf that he actually is.

That's how he can stick up for the NO after all these years.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: ClarkSmith on August 20, 2015, 05:12:05 PM: Quote
At some point in 2012, Michael was informed that the lease for the space that Real Catholic TV occupied was not going to be renewed.

At the time, their financial situation was such that finding themselves without a studio and effectively “out of business,” at least temporarily, was a very real possibility.

What happened next is all anyone needs to know about what precipitated Michael’s stunning about face wherein good Catholic men and fellow soldiers for Christ that he once called “friend” suddenly became, not only disposable, but objects of derision, as if almost overnight they had become the enemy.

At the eleventh hour, a “knight in shining armor” and fanboi of Michael Voris strode onto the scene; a wealthy FSSP parishioner from Texas who offered to purchase a nearby building where the newly named Church Militant.tv could set up shop.

Problem solved!

Not so fast…

This particular “benefactor” wasn’t about to content himself with simply writing a few checks while leaving the heavy lifting to the pros; no, this guy wanted a return on investment well beyond whatever sense of satisfaction might come from an act of Catholic philanthropy.

As such, he leveraged his financial clout to the point of effectively purchasing for himself, in addition to some real estate in the Detroit suburbs, the title of “Executive Producer” at CMTV.

Once entrenched in the day to day operations, albeit mainly via telephone calls and emails that no one dared to ignore, over time he was able to impress upon Michael, among other things, his personal hatred for the Society of St. Pius X, somehow convincing him to adopt that irrational position as his very own, at least insofar as the editorial slant of his programming is concerned.

https://harvestingthefruit.com/how-michael-voris-rolls/
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Phyllo on August 21, 2015, 11:34:49 AM: Has any one seen this yet? I think it is pretty good and tells it like it is.

http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/52bff54b8f99299a3de459f9a41145cf-431.html
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 21, 2015, 02:39:25 PM: Quote from: cassini
In the first place, I am not pleased that the American SSPX should put out a video advising Catholics not to attend the NO under any circuмstances because of this or that. Catholics in their millions were doing that already without any prompting from the SSPX.

if Voris thinks being a Catholic is following a pope that brings the Catholic Church into disrepute every time he opens his mouth to reporters, well he can think again.

Our Lady at La Salette said 'Rome would lose the faith and become the seat of the anti-Christ.'

Wonder what Voris would say about that message from heaven? Some of us believe her prophesy has come true. Has Our Lady led us into schism?

All Voris would need to say here is, that part about Rome losing the faith and becoming the seat of the anti-Christ was discredited long ago, by the Church. For almost 100 years ago, a second edition of Melanie's letters was published which had that part edited out, since it was far too inconvenient for the power brokers in the Vatican. This is the same reason they've kept the 3rd Secret of Fatima unpublished: inconvenience.

Quote

I would not go to a NO to fulfil my Sunday obligation because of the fact that it has driven MILLIONS of Catholics out of Sunday Mass going. I do not want that to happen to me or my children. Instead I/we go to a Trent Mass found at a chapel given by a SSPX priest.

Finally, he quotes a bishop telling all Catholics NOT to go to as SSPX Mass. Voris said their Masses are valid Masses, so are a valid way to fulfil my Sunday obligation. But here is a Catholic Bishop being used by Voris to get me to commit Mortal Sin telling me NOT TO GO TO MY PREFERENCE SUNDAY MASS.

Does Voris not see the CONTRADICTION, the [HYPOCRISY] of his latest LETTER TO SUBSCRIBERS[?]

Finally I am willing to let God be our Judge. I do not challenge any pope's legitimacy but where Francis is concerned, only if he defined something using his infallible authority would I adhere to that. Until then, I will ignore that NON-DOGMATIC Council Vatican II stuff and Voris can twirl his pencil all he likes.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 21, 2015, 03:23:55 PM: Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Matto
I do not understand how anyone can go to a traditional Mass and then a Novus Ordo Mass and not come out thinking the traditional Mass is good and the Novus Ordo Mass is bad. It seems like Novus Ordites are cursed with spiritual blindness.

He just showed his hand, he is here to help the destroyers of the faith.

Well spoken, Stubborn!

Quote

All those who thought he was some sort of defender of the faith just witnessed a little of his sheep's clothing give way to expose a little of the wolf that he actually is.

That's how he can stick up for the NO after all these years.

I have a friend who has been a staunch traditionalist for many years, who had been sending Voris contributions because she thought he had potential, and she thought she could convert him. I tried to tell her that she was wasting her money and that she ought to give it to our own independent traditional priests, instead.

Maybe now she'll listen to me...?

.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 21, 2015, 03:57:09 PM: Quote from: Phyllo
Has any one seen this yet? I think it is pretty good and tells it like it is.

http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/52bff54b8f99299a3de459f9a41145cf-431.html

Let's embed it right here, right now!!

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/embed/SfkALjSTXM8[/youtube]

THERE!

It's nice to see an intelligent scholar step up to the plate in a timely manner.

Many thanks to John Vennari!

Quote from: the CFN site

YOUR SUBSCRIPTIONS TO THE PRINT EDITION OF CFN

MAKE THIS INTERNET APOSTOLATE POSSIBLE!

.

.

.

A clip from minute 13:

Quote from: John Vennari

... I think it would be more beneficial for Voris to publicly question, again and again and again, with the same frequency, with the same passion that he constantly attacks the SSPX, question Vatican officials, over and over again, publicly:

Why have they given us, abusing their authority, why they have given us a protestantized liturgy in the first place, where we are forced to make a choice!?

Why have they given us this new liturgy where in the words of Cardinals Ottoviani and Bacci, it "represents in its whole and in its details a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as codified by the Council of Trent!"?

.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: cassini on August 22, 2015, 01:09:59 AM: of his latest LETTER TO SUBSCRIBERS[?]

Answer Neil - Letter= encyclical, Voris's encyclical

subscribers = those who subscribe to Voris's papacy.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Donato on August 22, 2015, 01:34:45 AM: finally, this:

Quote from: Michael "Flock of Seagulls" Voris

Whom do you choose? The Pope — or an outfit with no canonical status whose ministers do not legitimately exercise any ministry?

:roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1: :roll-laugh1:

BTNYC: not only do you "own it' with your posts, but you just gave me the best laugh in weeks.....Michael "Flock of Seagulls" Voris!

Whats truly funny is that I've met in person both Michael Voris and Mike Score (lead singer of AFOS)- I found Mike Score to be way more sincere and humble than Voris, so maybe its an insult to Mike Score to associate his band with Voris (who will lie to ones face, as he did with me).

He told me back in October 2012 that it was illicit to attend an SSPX Mass- as you've correctly pointed out, Voris is clearly acting like his Protestant father and interpreting things to his own liking.....he is simply dishonest, and his totally lame "Catholic " conference in upstate NY was typical N.O. emotional nonsense with no substance at all....suffice to say my trip out to Spokane WA at Mt. St. Michael's with the CMRI was the perfect remedy to the feel good, modernist charade I was exposed to while wanting to meet who I once believed was a true champion defender of the Faith :facepalm:
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 22, 2015, 10:18:01 AM: .

Quote
I do not challenge any pope's legitimacy but where Francis is concerned, only if he defined something using his infallible authority would I adhere to that. Until then, I will ignore that NON-DOGMATIC Council Vatican II stuff and Voris can twirl his pencil all he likes.

It would be great to hear the news of a dogmatic definition from Francis.

But it seems rather impossible that could ever happen, since he abhors the very principle of definition. It would be a complete reversal of his character for him to define anything whatsoever. In regards to doctrinal matters, he is all about ambiguity, double meaning, "options" (spontaneous corruption), contradiction, silliness, ridiculousness and obscurity.

JPII was merely a Pope who liked clowns; now we've got a Pope who IS one.

He is 100% a product of the unclean spirit of Vatican II, and barring a miracle from God, that's all we can expect from him -- more unclean spirit stuff.

Very much like the ancient Israelites after they left Egypt, we have been wandering in the desert since the Revolution took over at Vat.II.

And the more Michael Voris tries to make it seem otherwise, the more laughable he becomes.

Only it isn't funny. It's just sad.

.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on August 22, 2015, 12:56:10 PM: Vatican II council was to water down Catholicism to bring in the Protestants.

All are welcomed to table... Is not Catholic. The new Mass is Protestant.
Catholics are singing Protestant hymns that are in the novous ordo music issue.

Vatican II council opened the door to Protestantism and it is there with religious liberty and ecuмenicism.

Why is Rome vocal when it comes to SSPX? But silent to sodomy and sex abuse.

The Old Catholics are never even mention. And these schismatics and heretics call
Themselves @ "Catholic"
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Viva Cristo Rey on August 22, 2015, 12:58:52 PM: However, staying home shouldn't be an option. It is mortal sin. Go to SSPX, FSSP, institute of Christ the King.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: LaramieHirsch on August 22, 2015, 02:21:04 PM: So, I had two sincere questions for this Vortex. I asked them last night, and I wanted honest answers. They did not respond, removed my questions, and closed the comments.

This is why I do not watch ChurchMilitantTV any longer.

- - - -

Honest questions here. I have been attending a diocesan Tridentine Latin Mass. So, it's not even FSSP. I've never really advocated SSPX, and I've often spoken out against Sedevacantism.

1. If, as Scriptures tells us, there will one day be a time when there seems to be a Counter Church--an Abomination of Desolation--then wouldn't what we are witnessing in Rome be how that ultimate end comes about?

2. St. Francis is said to have announced this following prophecy about a time of an odious mass, a non-canonically elected pope, a time when the Franciscan order is under attack, and when a group of true Catholics will be holding the Faith together, though they will be considered schismatics. Forgive the length, but I've found the entire passage compelling. If anyone has answers, particularly CMTV staff, I am eager to hear what you have to say:

Quote
"Act bravely, my Brethren; take courage, and trust in the Lord. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.
"The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.

"Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.

"There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.

"Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.

"Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. But the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head [Jesus Christ], these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish [physically] rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.

"Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer."

(Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi, [London: R. Washbourne, 1882], pp. 248-250; underlining and paragraph breaks added.)

- - - - -

Here is my statement about the matter on the ChurchMilitantTV Facebook post about the article:

Quote
I asked two sincere questions in the comments at the end of this article. I received no answer, my questions were taken down, and the comments were closed.

To his credit, at least Terry Carrol responded to my questions in the past. I've been on the fence on this matter, and I find it difficult to criticize the SSPX when it receives the support of so many cardinals, bishops, and priests.

I would like to think that if I were asking these questions to Jesus Christ Himself, at least He would answer.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: BTNYC on August 22, 2015, 03:37:44 PM: Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
However, staying home shouldn't be an option. It is mortal sin. Go to SSPX, FSSP, institute of Christ the King.

What about Novus Ordo? That's the subject at hand, not "Home-Aloneism" as such.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Stubborn on August 22, 2015, 04:35:27 PM: Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
However, staying home shouldn't be an option. It is mortal sin. Go to SSPX, FSSP, institute of Christ the King.

What about Novus Ordo? That's the subject at hand, not "Home-Aloneism" as such.

Yes, you have to go where you are sure you will receive the sacraments. You cannot be sure at a new mass so that = stay home. Personally, I would not go to FSSP or ICK because, well, the easiest way to explain it is to say that, if you are confused about FSSP/ICK, consider there has to be something wrong with them because Mikey Voris most likely goes to one of them regularly - but more important, MV has never condemned them.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: 2Vermont on August 23, 2015, 08:05:57 AM: Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
However, staying home shouldn't be an option. It is mortal sin. Go to SSPX, FSSP, institute of Christ the King.

What about Novus Ordo? That's the subject at hand, not "Home-Aloneism" as such.

Yes, you have to go where you are sure you will receive the sacraments. You cannot be sure at a new mass so that = stay home. Personally, I would not go to FSSP or ICK because, well, the easiest way to explain it is to say that, if you are confused about FSSP/ICK, consider there has to be something wrong with them because Mikey Voris most likely goes to one of them regularly - but more important, MV has never condemned them.

I think all masses that are somehow connected with NewChurch should be avoided (FSSP, ICKSP, diocesan). Not only do you have the question of validity of ordinations/episcopal consecrations, but I have noticed that those who attend these masses are negatively affected by being part of NewChurch. I'm not sure why, but there is a difference in the way they approach the Crisis. With SSPX, I believe one should do one's homework on the priest's ordination and be cognizant of what is preached. I'm afraid that over time, SSPX will be part of the group I mentioned above.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: pat on August 23, 2015, 11:18:26 AM: Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
However, staying home shouldn't be an option. It is mortal sin. Go to SSPX, FSSP, institute of Christ the King.

What about Novus Ordo? That's the subject at hand, not "Home-Aloneism" as such.

Yes, you have to go where you are sure you will receive the sacraments. You cannot be sure at a new mass so that = stay home. Personally, I would not go to FSSP or ICK because, well, the easiest way to explain it is to say that, if you are confused about FSSP/ICK, consider there has to be something wrong with them because Mikey Voris most likely goes to one of them regularly - but more important, MV has never condemned them.

I think all masses that are somehow connected with NewChurch should be avoided (FSSP, ICKSP, diocesan). Not only do you have the question of validity of ordinations/episcopal consecrations, but I have noticed that those who attend these masses are negatively affected by being part of NewChurch. I'm not sure why, but there is a difference in the way they approach the Crisis. With SSPX, I believe one should do one's homework on the priest's ordination and be cognizant of what is preached. I'm afraid that over time, SSPX will be part of the group I mentioned above.

This is where my loneliness begins. I thank a SSPX priest for letting me know my concern over the protestantism of the Church was valid. This is four years ago.

God has led us to an area where there is no TLM within an hour drive. I have gone to NO in a beautiful Cathedral here a couple of times in a year and a half... and though the priest keeps it reverent... the people are nice ..it just isn't right.

bottom line please remember those of us who cannot go to TLM in your prayers for strength and dedication.. we are certainly not the first to have dealt with this .. but your prayers are desperately needed.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Stubborn on August 23, 2015, 11:39:42 AM: Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
However, staying home shouldn't be an option. It is mortal sin. Go to SSPX, FSSP, institute of Christ the King.

What about Novus Ordo? That's the subject at hand, not "Home-Aloneism" as such.

Yes, you have to go where you are sure you will receive the sacraments. You cannot be sure at a new mass so that = stay home. Personally, I would not go to FSSP or ICK because, well, the easiest way to explain it is to say that, if you are confused about FSSP/ICK, consider there has to be something wrong with them because Mikey Voris most likely goes to one of them regularly - but more important, MV has never condemned them.

I think all masses that are somehow connected with NewChurch should be avoided (FSSP, ICKSP, diocesan). Not only do you have the question of validity of ordinations/episcopal consecrations, but I have noticed that those who attend these masses are negatively affected by being part of NewChurch. I'm not sure why, but there is a difference in the way they approach the Crisis. With SSPX, I believe one should do one's homework on the priest's ordination and be cognizant of what is preached. I'm afraid that over time, SSPX will be part of the group I mentioned above.

I agree.
Not sure why MV decided to start slandering the SSPX, but as long as he keeps that up, I'll take that as a good sign for the SSPX.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Stubborn on August 23, 2015, 11:57:05 AM: Quote from: pat
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
However, staying home shouldn't be an option. It is mortal sin. Go to SSPX, FSSP, institute of Christ the King.

What about Novus Ordo? That's the subject at hand, not "Home-Aloneism" as such.

Yes, you have to go where you are sure you will receive the sacraments. You cannot be sure at a new mass so that = stay home. Personally, I would not go to FSSP or ICK because, well, the easiest way to explain it is to say that, if you are confused about FSSP/ICK, consider there has to be something wrong with them because Mikey Voris most likely goes to one of them regularly - but more important, MV has never condemned them.

I think all masses that are somehow connected with NewChurch should be avoided (FSSP, ICKSP, diocesan). Not only do you have the question of validity of ordinations/episcopal consecrations, but I have noticed that those who attend these masses are negatively affected by being part of NewChurch. I'm not sure why, but there is a difference in the way they approach the Crisis. With SSPX, I believe one should do one's homework on the priest's ordination and be cognizant of what is preached. I'm afraid that over time, SSPX will be part of the group I mentioned above.

This is where my loneliness begins. I thank a SSPX priest for letting me know my concern over the protestantism of the Church was valid. This is four years ago.

God has led us to an area where there is no TLM within an hour drive. I have gone to NO in a beautiful Cathedral here a couple of times in a year and a half... and though the priest keeps it reverent... the people are nice ..it just isn't right.

bottom line please remember those of us who cannot go to TLM in your prayers for strength and dedication.. we are certainly not the first to have dealt with this .. but your prayers are desperately needed.

I am nobody but I will tell you to stay away completely from the new mass and have nothing to do with the NO in any way.

The new mass is an abuse of the True Mass, therefore a reverent new mass is a reverent abuse of the True Mass.

If you've not read it yet, here is a PDF of The Great Sacrilege (http://www.cathinfo.com/TheGreatSacrilegeCI.pdf). Read it. If that link doesn't work, use this online version (http://www.dailycatholic.org/indextgs.htm) Though written in 1970, it could have just as easily been written yesterday and will at least help you to understand why we can have nothing to do with the new mass.

And yes, be assured of our prayers, but get used to that hour drive, or two hour drive, even if it's only once every other week or month.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Donato on August 23, 2015, 02:08:01 PM: Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
However, staying home shouldn't be an option. It is mortal sin. Go to SSPX, FSSP, institute of Christ the King.

What about Novus Ordo? That's the subject at hand, not "Home-Aloneism" as such.

Yes, you have to go where you are sure you will receive the sacraments. You cannot be sure at a new mass so that = stay home. Personally, I would not go to FSSP or ICK because, well, the easiest way to explain it is to say that, if you are confused about FSSP/ICK, consider there has to be something wrong with them because Mikey Voris most likely goes to one of them regularly - but more important, MV has never condemned them.

I think all masses that are somehow connected with NewChurch should be avoided (FSSP, ICKSP, diocesan). Not only do you have the question of validity of ordinations/episcopal consecrations, but I have noticed that those who attend these masses are negatively affected by being part of NewChurch. I'm not sure why, but there is a difference in the way they approach the Crisis. With SSPX, I believe one should do one's homework on the priest's ordination and be cognizant of what is preached. I'm afraid that over time, SSPX will be part of the group I mentioned above.

Great point- Im surprised actually that many people on here seem to not consider the whole question of priestly validity; the new rite of ordination is a best DOUBTFUL, which means its as good as nothing....the issue of where to attend Mass goes far beyond just finding a Latin Mass
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: 2Vermont on August 23, 2015, 04:24:56 PM: Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: pat
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
However, staying home shouldn't be an option. It is mortal sin. Go to SSPX, FSSP, institute of Christ the King.

What about Novus Ordo? That's the subject at hand, not "Home-Aloneism" as such.

Yes, you have to go where you are sure you will receive the sacraments. You cannot be sure at a new mass so that = stay home. Personally, I would not go to FSSP or ICK because, well, the easiest way to explain it is to say that, if you are confused about FSSP/ICK, consider there has to be something wrong with them because Mikey Voris most likely goes to one of them regularly - but more important, MV has never condemned them.

I think all masses that are somehow connected with NewChurch should be avoided (FSSP, ICKSP, diocesan). Not only do you have the question of validity of ordinations/episcopal consecrations, but I have noticed that those who attend these masses are negatively affected by being part of NewChurch. I'm not sure why, but there is a difference in the way they approach the Crisis. With SSPX, I believe one should do one's homework on the priest's ordination and be cognizant of what is preached. I'm afraid that over time, SSPX will be part of the group I mentioned above.

This is where my loneliness begins. I thank a SSPX priest for letting me know my concern over the protestantism of the Church was valid. This is four years ago.

God has led us to an area where there is no TLM within an hour drive. I have gone to NO in a beautiful Cathedral here a couple of times in a year and a half... and though the priest keeps it reverent... the people are nice ..it just isn't right.

bottom line please remember those of us who cannot go to TLM in your prayers for strength and dedication.. we are certainly not the first to have dealt with this .. but your prayers are desperately needed.

I am nobody but I will tell you to stay away completely from the new mass and have nothing to do with the NO in any way.

The new mass is an abuse of the True Mass, therefore a reverent new mass is a reverent abuse of the True Mass.

If you've not read it yet, here is a PDF of The Great Sacrilege (http://www.cathinfo.com/TheGreatSacrilegeCI.pdf). Read it. If that link doesn't work, use this online version (http://www.dailycatholic.org/indextgs.htm) Though written in 1970, it could have just as easily been written yesterday and will at least help you to understand why we can have nothing to do with the new mass.

And yes, be assured of our prayers, but get used to that hour drive, or two hour drive, even if it's only once every other week or month.

Absolutely Patti. You've got mine as well. Know that there are many of us in a similar situation. My husband and I go to mass once every other month 3.5-4.0 hours away even when there is a diocesan TLM only 20-30 minutes away now.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Matto on August 23, 2015, 04:49:11 PM: Quote from: 2Vermont
Absolutely Patti. You've got mine as well. Know that there are many of us in a similar situation. My husband and I go to mass once every other month 3.5-4.0 hours away even when there is a diocesan TLM only 20-30 minutes away now.

I am with you about avoiding the diocesan TLM. I consider the Novus Ordo priests to be doubtful so I avoid them. Now at Ridgefield, where my priest comes from, there is a former Novus Ordo priest who was not conditionally ordained. Thankfully he has not said Mass at my chapel, but he might in the future. I do not know what to do if he comes to say Mass. Would it be best to just walk out and go home if I see him there? Or would it be okay to stay for Mass but just not go to communion. I would not confess my sins to him or receive the bread he tried to consecrate for communion because he might not be a priest. I so wish the SSPX would conditionally ordain all those priests who come from the Novus Ordo. Sigh.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Matto on August 23, 2015, 04:56:00 PM: A fellow parishioner expressed her doubts about the Novus Ordo priests coming to the SSPX and not being conditionally ordained to an SSPX priest and he just told her they do an investigation and then decide whether or not to conditionally ordain the Novus Ordo priest and the parishioners should just trust them because they know better.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: 2Vermont on August 23, 2015, 04:58:59 PM: Quote from: Matto
Quote from: 2Vermont
Absolutely Patti. You've got mine as well. Know that there are many of us in a similar situation. My husband and I go to mass once every other month 3.5-4.0 hours away even when there is a diocesan TLM only 20-30 minutes away now.

I am with you about avoiding the diocesan TLM. I consider the Novus Ordo priests to be doubtful so I avoid them. Now at Ridgefield, where my priest comes from, there is a former Novus Ordo priest who was not conditionally ordained. Thankfully he has not said Mass at my chapel, but he might in the future. I do not know what to do if he comes to say Mass. Would it be best to just walk out and go home if I see him there? Or would it be okay to stay for Mass but just not go to communion. I would not confess my sins to him or receive the bread he tried to consecrate for communion because he might not be a priest. I so wish the SSPX would conditionally ordain all those priests who come from the Novus Ordo. Sigh.

I would probably walk out.

I know which priest you are speaking of and he was not only ordained in the New Rite, but the bishop who ordained him was consecrated in the New Rite. Double whammy for sure. That alone makes me seriously question why the SPPX thinks his ordination passes their validity test. I *might* be able to better understand their conclusion if the bishop was consecrated in the Old Rite.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: pat on August 23, 2015, 05:13:42 PM: Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: pat
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: BTNYC
Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
However, staying home shouldn't be an option. It is mortal sin. Go to SSPX, FSSP, institute of Christ the King.

What about Novus Ordo? That's the subject at hand, not "Home-Aloneism" as such.

Yes, you have to go where you are sure you will receive the sacraments. You cannot be sure at a new mass so that = stay home. Personally, I would not go to FSSP or ICK because, well, the easiest way to explain it is to say that, if you are confused about FSSP/ICK, consider there has to be something wrong with them because Mikey Voris most likely goes to one of them regularly - but more important, MV has never condemned them.

I think all masses that are somehow connected with NewChurch should be avoided (FSSP, ICKSP, diocesan). Not only do you have the question of validity of ordinations/episcopal consecrations, but I have noticed that those who attend these masses are negatively affected by being part of NewChurch. I'm not sure why, but there is a difference in the way they approach the Crisis. With SSPX, I believe one should do one's homework on the priest's ordination and be cognizant of what is preached. I'm afraid that over time, SSPX will be part of the group I mentioned above.

This is where my loneliness begins. I thank a SSPX priest for letting me know my concern over the protestantism of the Church was valid. This is four years ago.

God has led us to an area where there is no TLM within an hour drive. I have gone to NO in a beautiful Cathedral here a couple of times in a year and a half... and though the priest keeps it reverent... the people are nice ..it just isn't right.

bottom line please remember those of us who cannot go to TLM in your prayers for strength and dedication.. we are certainly not the first to have dealt with this .. but your prayers are desperately needed.

I am nobody but I will tell you to stay away completely from the new mass and have nothing to do with the NO in any way.

The new mass is an abuse of the True Mass, therefore a reverent new mass is a reverent abuse of the True Mass.

If you've not read it yet, here is a PDF of The Great Sacrilege (http://www.cathinfo.com/TheGreatSacrilegeCI.pdf). Read it. If that link doesn't work, use this online version (http://www.dailycatholic.org/indextgs.htm) Though written in 1970, it could have just as easily been written yesterday and will at least help you to understand why we can have nothing to do with the new mass.

And yes, be assured of our prayers, but get used to that hour drive, or two hour drive, even if it's only once every other week or month.

yes you ARE somebody! and actually the drive would be much longer and circuмstances make it impossible.

and thanks all for your prayers I too will be praying
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Neil Obstat on August 24, 2015, 03:12:09 AM: .

You did a good thing, LH.

Thank you for your efforts, and for the report!

Their unwillingness to respond speaks volumes.

Quote from: LaramieHirsch
So, I had two sincere questions for this Vortex. I asked them last night, and I wanted honest answers. They did not respond, removed my questions, and closed the comments.

This is why I do not watch ChurchMilitantTV any longer.

- - - -

Honest questions here. I have been attending a diocesan Tridentine Latin Mass. So, it's not even FSSP. I've never really advocated SSPX, and I've often spoken out against Sedevacantism.

1. If, as Scriptures tells us, there will one day be a time when there seems to be a Counter Church--an Abomination of Desolation--then wouldn't what we are witnessing in Rome be how that ultimate end comes about?

2. St. Francis is said to have announced this following prophecy about a time of an odious mass, a non-canonically elected pope, a time when the Franciscan order is under attack, and when a group of true Catholics will be holding the Faith together, though they will be considered schismatics. Forgive the length, but I've found the entire passage compelling. If anyone has answers, particularly CMTV staff, I am eager to hear what you have to say:

Quote
"Act bravely, my Brethren; take courage, and trust in the Lord. The time is fast approaching in which there will be great trials and afflictions; perplexities and dissensions, both spiritual and temporal, will abound; the charity of many will grow cold, and the malice of the wicked will increase.

"The devils will have unusual power, the immaculate purity of our Order, and of others, will be so much obscured that there will be very few Christians who will obey the true Sovereign Pontiff and the Roman Church with loyal hearts and perfect charity. At the time of this tribulation a man, not canonically elected, will be raised to the Pontificate, who, by his cunning, will endeavour to draw many into error and death.

"Then scandals will be multiplied, our Order will be divided, and many others will be entirely destroyed, because they will consent to error instead of opposing it.

"There will be such diversity of opinions and schisms among the people, the religious and the clergy, that, except those days were shortened, according to the words of the Gospel, even the elect would be led into error, were they not specially guided, amid such great confusion, by the immense mercy of God.

"Then our Rule and manner of life will be violently opposed by some, and terrible trials will come upon us. Those who are found faithful will receive the crown of life; but woe to those who, trusting solely in their Order, shall fall into tepidity, for they will not be able to support the temptations permitted for the proving of the elect.

"Those who preserve their fervour and adhere to virtue with love and zeal for the truth, will suffer injuries and, persecutions as rebels and schismatics; for their persecutors, urged on by the evil spirits, will say they are rendering a great service to God by destroying such pestilent men from the face of the earth. But the Lord will be the refuge of the afflicted, and will save all who trust in Him. And in order to be like their Head [Jesus Christ], these, the elect, will act with confidence, and by their death will purchase for themselves eternal life; choosing to obey God rather than man, they will fear nothing, and they will prefer to perish [physically] rather than consent to falsehood and perfidy.

"Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it under foot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor, but a destroyer."

(Works of the Seraphic Father St. Francis Of Assisi, [London: R. Washbourne, 1882], pp. 248-250; underlining and paragraph breaks added.)

- - - - -

Here is my statement about the matter on the ChurchMilitantTV Facebook post about the article:

Quote
I asked two sincere questions in the comments at the end of this article. I received no answer, my questions were taken down, and the comments were closed.

To his credit, at least Terry Carrol responded to my questions in the past. I've been on the fence on this matter, and I find it difficult to criticize the SSPX when it receives the support of so many cardinals, bishops, and priests.

I would like to think that if I were asking these questions to Jesus Christ Himself, at least He would answer.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Stubborn on August 24, 2015, 06:32:16 AM: Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Matto
Quote from: 2Vermont
Absolutely Patti. You've got mine as well. Know that there are many of us in a similar situation. My husband and I go to mass once every other month 3.5-4.0 hours away even when there is a diocesan TLM only 20-30 minutes away now.

I am with you about avoiding the diocesan TLM. I consider the Novus Ordo priests to be doubtful so I avoid them. Now at Ridgefield, where my priest comes from, there is a former Novus Ordo priest who was not conditionally ordained. Thankfully he has not said Mass at my chapel, but he might in the future. I do not know what to do if he comes to say Mass. Would it be best to just walk out and go home if I see him there? Or would it be okay to stay for Mass but just not go to communion. I would not confess my sins to him or receive the bread he tried to consecrate for communion because he might not be a priest. I so wish the SSPX would conditionally ordain all those priests who come from the Novus Ordo. Sigh.

I would probably walk out.

I know which priest you are speaking of and he was not only ordained in the New Rite, but the bishop who ordained him was consecrated in the New Rite. Double whammy for sure. That alone makes me seriously question why the SPPX thinks his ordination passes their validity test. I *might* be able to better understand their conclusion if the bishop was consecrated in the Old Rite.

I would not walk out, least ways not until I asked him about his ordination and what the SSPX had to say about it. If the priest is not the enemy, he should be willing, if not happy to answer your questions. Certainly since he left the bogus ordo, he understands why one would have such questions and will give you a direct answer.

When I couldn't see them before hand, I have asked priests about their ordination in the confessional before saying anything else. You do not have to make it seem like you're grilling him, before confessing, simply ask; "Father, because of the way things are these days, can I ask when you were ordained a priest and were you ordained in the new rite or the old rite?

You only want to ask one time, so be sure to be crystal clear, to not leave any room for him to answer you with a question like, "what do you mean?" so you won't be stuck giving a long explanation.

Although it can be a bit awkward sometimes, I learned most priests understand and will readily reply as if they have their answer memorized.

Or you can always ask one of the priests you trust. Consider that he would not want to be letting some invalidly ordained priest take his place, any more than you want to go to a Mass or receive the sacraments from him.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: 2Vermont on August 24, 2015, 06:57:41 AM: Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Matto
Quote from: 2Vermont
Absolutely Patti. You've got mine as well. Know that there are many of us in a similar situation. My husband and I go to mass once every other month 3.5-4.0 hours away even when there is a diocesan TLM only 20-30 minutes away now.

I am with you about avoiding the diocesan TLM. I consider the Novus Ordo priests to be doubtful so I avoid them. Now at Ridgefield, where my priest comes from, there is a former Novus Ordo priest who was not conditionally ordained. Thankfully he has not said Mass at my chapel, but he might in the future. I do not know what to do if he comes to say Mass. Would it be best to just walk out and go home if I see him there? Or would it be okay to stay for Mass but just not go to communion. I would not confess my sins to him or receive the bread he tried to consecrate for communion because he might not be a priest. I so wish the SSPX would conditionally ordain all those priests who come from the Novus Ordo. Sigh.

I would probably walk out.

I know which priest you are speaking of and he was not only ordained in the New Rite, but the bishop who ordained him was consecrated in the New Rite. Double whammy for sure. That alone makes me seriously question why the SPPX thinks his ordination passes their validity test. I *might* be able to better understand their conclusion if the bishop was consecrated in the Old Rite.

I would not walk out, least ways not until I asked him about his ordination and what the SSPX had to say about it. If the priest is not the enemy, he should be willing, if not happy to answer your questions. Certainly since he left the bogus ordo, he understands why one would have such questions and will give you a direct answer.

When I couldn't see them before hand, I have asked priests about their ordination in the confessional before saying anything else. You do not have to make it seem like you're grilling him, before confessing, simply ask; "Father, because of the way things are these days, can I ask when you were ordained a priest and were you ordained in the new rite or the old rite?

You only want to ask one time, so be sure to be crystal clear, to not leave any room for him to answer you with a question like, "what do you mean?" so you won't be stuck giving a long explanation.

Although it can be a bit awkward sometimes, I learned most priests understand and will readily reply as if they have their answer memorized.

Or you can always ask one of the priests you trust. Consider that he would not want to be letting some invalidly ordained priest take his place, any more than you want to go to a Mass or receive the sacraments from him.

But that question alone is not enough. You also need to know about the bishop who ordained him. If he was consecrated in the New Rite, the priest's rite of ordination is moot.

As for this particular instance, there have been threads about this particular priest who moved from NY to CT. It is a fact that he was not re-ordained by the SSPX and it is a fact that his bishop was consecrated in the New Rite.
Title: Voris rebukes SSPX for stance on new mass
Post by: Stubborn on August 24, 2015, 08:50:18 AM: Quote from: 2Vermont

But that question alone is not enough. You also need to know about the bishop who ordained him. If he was consecrated in the New Rite, the priest's rite of ordination is moot.

As for this particular instance, there have been threads about this particular priest who moved from NY to CT. It is a fact that he was not re-ordained by the SSPX and it is a fact that his bishop was consecrated in the New Rite.

Yes, you can ask him whatever you want to know. I just gave a brief example.
When I used to go to the NO church for confession, once I walked out of the confessional without confessing, the reason I remember this one for sure, is because the priest tried to chase me down but he couldn't catch me lol......I think I was about 15 years old that time.

But I've found that if the priest is sincere, he would more welcome the question than be insulted by it. Don't hesitate to ask is my advice - then walk out if his answer is unsatisfactory.

If you feel certain that this priest is invalid and you do not want to ask, then you may be doing yourself and others a disservice. Is this priest so ignorant that he has no idea there is a crisis going on or why anyone would ask such a question? I mean, one of the first and most important things converts concern *themselves* with is if their baptism was valid. My guess is that for priests who find tradition, their first and most important concern would be the validity of their own ordinations. They would seek to insure validity or invalidity of their NO ordination with more vigor than a convert does their prot baptism.

These days, we have legitimate reasons to doubt his validity, but it is still worth asking him directly imo.