Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Matthew on March 17, 2018, 08:28:02 AM
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this chart is very imperfect.
i would love to have everybody imput and corrections about it.
it would gain in accuracy, and there are probably important branches of sedevacantism that i overlooked.
it will be put as an appendix of the Contra Cekadam.
fc+
Contra Cekadam by Fr. Francois Chazal - Print version (book)
https://www.chantcd.com/index.php/Contra-Cekadam (https://www.chantcd.com/index.php/Contra-Cekadam)
AVAILABLE NOW - $10 plus shipping.
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Interesting. What does 'non conclavist' mean? Why did he include 'st benedict center' under that? They are indult/novus ordo; I know many of the religious personally. I don't think they belong on this sheet, but other than that, it's very good. Most of this information is new to me.
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Interesting. What does 'non conclavist' mean? Why did he include 'st benedict center' under that? They are indult/novus ordo; I know many of the religious personally. I don't think they belong on this sheet, but other than that, it's very good. Most of this information is new to me.
Non conclavist means that they hold the position that the See is actually vacant and have no defined plans to elect a new pontiff. If you notice, the conclavists are those who recognize an existing "pope" somewhere or have defined plans to have a conclave themselves.
You are correct that St. Benedict Center is NOT sedevacantist.
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I do not see the sedeprivationist "Instituto Mater Boni Consilii" in Italy.
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Bishop Kelly and the SSPV aren't really sedevacantists but based upon positive doubt surrounding the status of the post-conciliar papacy. They make no position this or the other on whether they are True Popes like the CMRI does. CMRI is also very anti-Feenyite, posting in their chapels and many other places that Feenyites are barred from receiving the Sacraments in their chapels.
What about the resistance priests that were in the USML? The Institute Mater Boni Consilii of Bishop Geert Jan Stuyver.
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You are correct that St. Benedict Center is NOT sedevacantist.
Aren't they full Novus Ordo and hosted by the new-diocese?
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I do not see the sedeprivationist "Instituto Mater Boni Consilii" in Italy.
It is referred to under Bishop Stuyvert but not as its own branch.
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That Brazilian National Church had nothing to do with sedevacantists. It has nothing to do with the Traditional Catholic movement at all. Putting it in this list is like putting the schismatic Polish Catholic Church on this list or the Old Catholics on this list. (Some out there sedevacantists might have gotten their episcopal lineage from them, but the same could be said of the Old Catholics).
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Aren't they (St Benedict Center) full Novus Ordo and hosted by the new-diocese?
Yes and no. Depends which group you're talking about (there used to be 3). All have come under the diocese in the last few decades but they do still think of themselves (falsely) as 'trads' because they prefer the latin mass.
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Yeah, I don't really care for this and its breakdowns. Also, it lists specific groups and people in here rather than just limiting itself to positions.
One could put together an even more complex breakdown of sedeplenists.
I would not use Conclavist and Non-Conclavist as the top-level distinction, but I guess you could carve it up in different ways. Most Sedevacantists don't think of the Conclavist issue, but that comes as a consequence of their core position and is little more than an idle afterthought to most of them.
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So, at first glance, is this meant to depict SEDEVACANTISM (drawing out the permutations of sedevacantist theological positions) or to depict SEDEVACANTISTS?
So it labors under an identity crisis.
So, for instance, different SEDEVACANTISTS are show who happen to have the same theological groups, but only different in terms of being part of different organizations.
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I don't see Father Chazal on here. He should be on the breakdown with his sedeimpoundism ... since the position is most akin to sedeprivationism, and he lists a number of sedeprivationists on here.
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As I pointed out on another thread, sedeprivationism is NOT strictly sedevacantism. In fact, Father Ringrose emphasizes that point.
SEDEPLENISM -- See is occupied simpliciter.
SEDEVACANTISM -- See is vacant simpliciter.
SEDEPRIVATIONISM -- See is occupied secundum quid and See is vacant secundum quid.
SEDEIMPOUNDISM -- See is occupied secundum quid and See is vacant secundum quid.
What's interesting is that certain SEDEPRIVATIONISTS, like +Sanborn, will EMPHASIZE the vacancy part, while others, like Father Ringrose, will emphasize the occupancy part. So the difference is merely a matter of emphasis.
Father Chazal opts to put SEDEPRIVATIONISM under SEDEVACANTISM, but that's not strictly true. It's actually in between the two somewhere ... just as his own SEDEIMPOUNDISM is.
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The chart is slightly wrong.. Bps. Taylor and Montelongo do have Thuc lines, through Bishop Adamson.
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This chart is quite bad, not sure where he got his information from but they're so many errors.
Fullham is dead (RIP)
St Benedict Center (all 3) have been approved by their diocese to one degree or more.
He made conclavism 50% of the "chart". Less than 1% of sedecavantists are "conclavists".
He didn't differentiate (as ladisalus pointed out) between sede vacantist and sede privationist.
Left out IMBC which has like over 20 mass centers in Europe (I think around 10 just in Italy)
Those are just off the top of my head.
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And like Ladislaus said a sedeplenist chart would have universal salvation purveyors, female priests, pro abortion groups, pro ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ etc etc
That is the chart I would like to see (all 3000 branches lol).
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Bishop Kelly and the SSPV aren't really sedevacantists but based upon positive doubt surrounding the status of the post-conciliar papacy. They make no position this or the other on whether they are True Popes like the CMRI does. CMRI is also very anti-Feenyite, posting in their chapels and many other places that Feenyites are barred from receiving the Sacraments in their chapels.
What about the resistance priests that were in the USML? The Institute Mater Boni Consilii of Bishop Geert Jan Stuyver.
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CMRI is anti-anyone-who-teaches-EENS.
As soon as CMRI finds out someone is saying "outside the Church there is no salvation," the CMRI goes to great lengths to find something else to criticize them for, and then THAT'S the molehill they make into a mountain.
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The point is to take the focus OFF of the necessity of the Catholic Faith, so that Lutherans and Mormons and Episcopalians can feel comfortable. It's all about feelings. Catholics who feel good with other Catholics are welcome, those who feel out of sorts among non-Catholics are unwelcome.
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"Feenyites are barred from receiving the Sacraments in their chapels."
They would "bar" St. Athanasius if he were to show up.
He would make Protestants and pagans tense -- can't have that.
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Have you ever heard a CMRI priest give a sermon on EENS?
I'll tell you right now, don't bother looking, because it's not going to happen.
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You'll never hear a CMRI priest asking anyone to pray for the Collegial Consecration of Russia to the Immacualte Heart of Mary.
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They do Montfort Total Consecration to Mary
They recite the Fatima prayers after Mass (sometimes -- usually between May and October)
They repeat the story of the Fatima children -- with some emphasis -- and missing certain facts
They conduct processions for Our Lady of Fatima with her statue carried on a bier
But they refuse to encourage anyone to request from Rome the release of the Third Secret or the Consecration of Russia to the IHM
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Someone made a decision that saying "the Seat is empty" is far more important than Heaven's plan for world peace.
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When nuclear-tipped missiles start falling from the sky you can thank the CMRI for not asking for the Collegial Consecration of Russia.
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One could hit Spokane and another Lincoln.
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And like Ladislaus said a sedeplenist chart would have universal salvation purveyors, female priests, pro abortion groups, pro ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖ etc etc
That is the chart I would like to see (all 3000 branches lol).
Well, even within Traditional groups (ruling out straight Novus Ordo for a second).
SSPX, Resistance, FSSP, Campos, ICK, Motu Groups, Independent Traditional Priests, Pfeiffer Cult, etc. That's just what rolls off the top of my head.
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"Feenyites are barred from receiving the Sacraments in their chapels."
Is that so?
CMRI also promote NFP. And these liberal attitudes definitely seem to bear fruit. Remember when, not too long ago, a group of CMRI nuns broke off and became full-blown Novus Ordo?
Also, some teenage girls I know from the CMRI chapel in Akron run around in short shorts out in public during the week (from at least two different families that I know).
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When nuclear-tipped missiles start falling from the sky you can thank the CMRI for not asking for the Collegial Consecration of Russia.
Well, nobody would have heeded their request anyway.
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CMRI also promote NFP.
Yes, this is a big controversy in Minnesota, I hear. Non-CMRI catholics aren't allowed to attend certain chapels (even though some Minn people don't have any other Mass options) due to NFP debates and the long-running Feeneyism argument.
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Really! Reading here I wonder why God blesses C.M.R.I. so very much.
Thank you God, I appreciate your continued blessings.
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Really! Reading here I wonder why God blesses C.M.R.I. so very much.
Thank you God, I appreciate your continued blessings.
Matthew 5:45
...[Y]our Father who is in heaven ... maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust.
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"The blessing of the Lord is upon the head of the just: but iniquity covereth the mouth of the wicked."
[Proverbs 10:6 (http://www.drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=22&ch=10&l=6#x)]
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Myrna, just because some CMRI in Minnesota are uncharitable doesn't mean I'm criticizing the whole organization. I don't like to 'write off' a whole group just because of a few bad apples.
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Myrna, just because some CMRI in Minnesota are uncharitable doesn't mean I'm criticizing the whole organization. I don't like to 'write off' a whole group just because of a few bad apples.
That is good then Pax Vobis for neither does C.M.R.I. criticized other Trad. groups on the Internet. Remember there are always going to be bad apples, even Jesus picked Judas.
Lad should read his verse here from Matthew 5:45 and take the advice instead of posting whatever he thinks he wants it to mean, hoping no one will check out the context.
Most of the negative posted here about CMRI are nothing but exaggerated points of view.
If your looking for the absolutely perfect group without any dings, you won't find it! Enjoy the search.
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CMRI is anti-anyone-who-teaches-EENS.
As soon as CMRI finds out someone is saying "outside the Church there is no salvation," the CMRI goes to great lengths to find something else to criticize them for, and then THAT'S the molehill they make into a mountain.
Justice demands that you retract this libel. I can post recordings of the CMRI priest where I sometimes attend saying "outside the Church there is no salvation" without mentioning any of the Feenyite debate or related topics.
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Justice demands that you retract this libel. I can post recordings of the CMRI priest where I sometimes attend saying "outside the Church there is no salvation" without mentioning any of the Feenyite debate or related topics.
It's clear what he meant; the use of the phrase "EENS" has become codeword for Feeneyite.
In any case, the CMRI published an article (twice) entitled "The Salvation of Those Outside the Church" .. where the very title of the article verbatim contradicts defined dogma.
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It's clear what he meant; the use of the phrase "EENS" has become codeword for Feeneyite.
I would disagree with this entire statement.
In any case, the CMRI published an article (twice) entitled "The Salvation of Those Outside the Church" .. where the very title of the article verbatim contradicts defined dogma.
I had no idea about this.
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It's clear what he meant; the use of the phrase "EENS" has become codeword for Feeneyite.
In any case, the CMRI published an article (twice) entitled "The Salvation of Those Outside the Church" .. where the very title of the article verbatim contradicts defined dogma.
That "so-called" article is in the library here on this forum, and again, it doesn't say what you wish it said.
I know it's in the library because I put it there.
Someday you all of you will have to stand before God and answer for the mistaken words spoken about groups that YOU don't like. People here parrot what they hear from some jealous person and have no idea what they are speaking about.
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Is that so?
CMRI also promote NFP. And these liberal attitudes definitely seem to bear fruit. Remember when, not too long ago, a group of CMRI nuns broke off and became full-blown Novus Ordo?
Also, some teenage girls I know from the CMRI chapel in Akron run around in short shorts out in public during the week (from at least two different families that I know).
I know of a seminarian who was less than 6 months away from ordination, and he was kicked out.
Why?
Because he believed that there was no salvation outside of the catholic church. "All infidels are damned" - Pius X
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Yes it was literally called "The salvation outside the church"
What joke.