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Author Topic: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal  (Read 3302 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
« on: March 17, 2018, 08:28:02 AM »
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  • Quote

    this chart is very imperfect.
    i would love to have everybody imput and corrections about it.

    it would gain in accuracy, and there are probably important branches of sedevacantism that i overlooked.

    it will be put as an appendix of the Contra Cekadam.
    fc+

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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
    « Reply #1 on: March 17, 2018, 09:01:31 AM »
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  • Interesting.  What does 'non conclavist' mean?  Why did he include 'st benedict center' under that?  They are indult/novus ordo; I know many of the religious personally.  I don't think they belong on this sheet, but other than that, it's very good.  Most of this information is new to me.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
    « Reply #2 on: March 17, 2018, 09:23:09 AM »
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  • Interesting.  What does 'non conclavist' mean?  Why did he include 'st benedict center' under that?  They are indult/novus ordo; I know many of the religious personally.  I don't think they belong on this sheet, but other than that, it's very good.  Most of this information is new to me.

    Non conclavist means that they hold the position that the See is actually vacant and have no defined plans to elect a new pontiff. If you notice, the conclavists are those who recognize an existing "pope" somewhere or have defined plans to have a conclave themselves.  

    You are correct that St. Benedict Center is NOT sedevacantist.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
    « Reply #3 on: March 17, 2018, 09:36:51 AM »
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  • I do not see the sedeprivationist "Instituto Mater Boni Consilii" in Italy.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
    « Reply #4 on: March 17, 2018, 10:09:57 AM »
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  • Bishop Kelly and the SSPV aren't really sedevacantists but based upon positive doubt surrounding the status of the post-conciliar papacy. They make no position this or the other on whether they are True Popes like the CMRI does. CMRI is also very anti-Feenyite, posting in their chapels and many other places that Feenyites are barred from receiving the Sacraments in their chapels.

    What about the resistance priests that were in the USML? The Institute Mater Boni Consilii of Bishop Geert Jan Stuyver.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
    « Reply #5 on: March 17, 2018, 10:11:14 AM »
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  • You are correct that St. Benedict Center is NOT sedevacantist.
    Aren't they full Novus Ordo and hosted by the new-diocese?
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline cathman7

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    Re: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
    « Reply #6 on: March 17, 2018, 10:11:18 AM »
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  • I do not see the sedeprivationist "Instituto Mater Boni Consilii" in Italy.
    It is referred to under Bishop Stuyvert but not as its own branch.

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Re: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
    « Reply #7 on: March 17, 2018, 10:16:10 AM »
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  • That Brazilian National Church had nothing to do with sedevacantists. It has nothing to do with the Traditional Catholic movement at all. Putting it in this list is like putting the schismatic Polish Catholic Church on this list or the Old Catholics on this list.  (Some out there sedevacantists might have gotten their episcopal lineage from them, but the same could be said of the Old Catholics).
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
    « Reply #8 on: March 19, 2018, 10:53:28 AM »
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    Aren't they (St Benedict Center) full Novus Ordo and hosted by the new-diocese?
    Yes and no.  Depends which group you're talking about (there used to be 3).  All have come under the diocese in the last few decades but they do still think of themselves (falsely) as 'trads' because they prefer the latin mass.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
    « Reply #9 on: March 19, 2018, 01:18:16 PM »
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  • Yeah, I don't really care for this and its breakdowns.  Also, it lists specific groups and people in here rather than just limiting itself to positions.

    One could put together an even more complex breakdown of sedeplenists.

    I would not use Conclavist and Non-Conclavist as the top-level distinction, but I guess you could carve it up in different ways.  Most Sedevacantists don't think of the Conclavist issue, but that comes as a consequence of their core position and is little more than an idle afterthought to most of them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
    « Reply #10 on: March 19, 2018, 01:22:54 PM »
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  • So, at first glance, is this meant to depict SEDEVACANTISM (drawing out the permutations of sedevacantist theological positions) or to depict SEDEVACANTISTS?

    So it labors under an identity crisis.

    So, for instance, different SEDEVACANTISTS are show who happen to have the same theological groups, but only different in terms of being part of different organizations.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
    « Reply #11 on: March 19, 2018, 01:26:37 PM »
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  • I don't see Father Chazal on here.  He should be on the breakdown with his sedeimpoundism ... since the position is most akin to sedeprivationism, and he lists a number of sedeprivationists on here.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
    « Reply #12 on: March 19, 2018, 01:31:03 PM »
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  • As I pointed out on another thread, sedeprivationism is NOT strictly sedevacantism.  In fact, Father Ringrose emphasizes that point.

    SEDEPLENISM -- See is occupied simpliciter.
    SEDEVACANTISM -- See is vacant simpliciter.
    SEDEPRIVATIONISM -- See is occupied secundum quid and See is vacant secundum quid.
    SEDEIMPOUNDISM -- See is occupied secundum quid and See is vacant secundum quid.

    What's interesting is that certain SEDEPRIVATIONISTS, like +Sanborn, will EMPHASIZE the vacancy part, while others, like Father Ringrose, will emphasize the occupancy part.  So the difference is merely a matter of emphasis.

    Father Chazal opts to put SEDEPRIVATIONISM under SEDEVACANTISM, but that's not strictly true.  It's actually in between the two somewhere ... just as his own SEDEIMPOUNDISM is.

    Offline Marcellinus

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    Re: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
    « Reply #13 on: March 19, 2018, 04:35:55 PM »
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  • The chart is slightly wrong.. Bps. Taylor and Montelongo do have Thuc lines, through Bishop Adamson.

    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: Visual map of all branches of Sedevacantism - by Fr Chazal
    « Reply #14 on: March 19, 2018, 05:00:39 PM »
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  • This chart is quite bad, not sure where he got his information from but they're so many errors. 
    Fullham is dead (RIP)
    St Benedict Center (all 3) have been approved by their diocese to one degree or more.
    He made conclavism 50% of the "chart".  Less than 1% of sedecavantists are "conclavists".  
    He didn't differentiate (as ladisalus pointed out) between sede vacantist and sede privationist.  
    Left out IMBC which has like over 20 mass centers in Europe (I think around 10 just in Italy)

    Those are just off the top of my head.