Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: sspxbvm on September 19, 2012, 06:53:05 PM
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This topic will probably set us at odds with those we normally have no debate with but since at the moment the forums are a little slow (no sspx news last few days) thought this would be the best time to post this.
The "apparition" of Garabandal has bothered me since I watched a video on it almost 20 years ago. Although I will admit I am not educated on every detail of the supposed apparition but a few important details are very bothersome.
The most disturbing is the whole backward thing. How the children walked and even ran backward while receiving "communion" on the tongue. It probably would never have caught my attention except for a dream of St. John Bosco where he sees an elephant with its back toward the sanctuary. It was the devil doing things backward and since that time when I read that I have learned more of how the devil does things backwards. He'll even accuse persons of doing what they are not or of not doing what in reality they have done. We have seen this in our daily lives when we associate with certain persons who are, unfortunately, maliciously mischievous. Even the anti-christ will be a work of backwardness. Of evil instead of virtue of the devil instead of Christ.
Why would our Lady have the children running backwards? What did that accomplish? Surely she knows that works of backwardness are associated with the devils?
The next disturbing feature of the "apparitions" has to do with the entire package of messages. From what I have ever seen (surely I haven't full knowledge of every "message") the messages are all in line with La Salette, Fatima, Quito and even Akita, Japan. But then comes the most troublesome and even frightening contrivance. Those who are to believe that Our Lady appeared in Garabandal are also to believe that before the "great chastisement" there will be a cross that appears in the sky for certain persons to see for 3 hours but also it is said all people in the world will "feel" a certain contrition for having offeneded God. Some will convert. Others wont. Excuse me, but didn't God give us all a conscience that we possess at all times? Yes, some people in mortal sin have buried their conscience but is God going to pour out so much grace so as to practically force sinners to convert? Is this generation of people so special to receive what other generations (in general) did not?
Tie these points together and what do you get? You get a signature mark of Satan (the backwardness) mixed with all the good messages of Our Lady with an attached condition that God has supposedly put on Himself to warn people before He chastises. So you get the devoted Garabandal believer telling people essentially not to worry....God will give a sign and some time for you to convert. Sounds like a novus ordo trap set up for the devils to drag souls to hell.
So what is everybody elses opinion? Correct me if I am wrong on any point. I am always open to correction but will go looking for verification. Add important details I may have missed. I am not 100% deadset against Garabandal but I do lean very strongly in the way just displayed.
God speed.
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The message in June 1965 in which must be refering to the on going
Vatican 2 Council . To paraphrase that many Priests, Bishops, and
Cardinals are on their way to perdition, and taking many souls
with them.
This message decribed Vatican 2 and its aftermath. That
vatican 2 was them and is now a disaster for the church.
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Garabandal is pure bunk.
The local ordinaries have repeatedly condemned it.
E. Michael Jones, years ago, interviewed one of the fake "visionaries" and she told him she wasn't sure any of it ever even happened since she had a hard time remembering what did happen.
Compare that comment, from the horses mouth, with St. Bernadette or Sister Lucia of Fatima, or her beatified cousins.
This kind of frenetic idiocy, like Medj, Inc., just gives Catholicism a bad name and makes good ( but VERY gullible ) folks look intergalcatically dumb.
Which is, of course, what it intends....
Finally, any number of fake visits from the Great Beyond seem stuck in the same groove about some fantastic "sign" that will stop traffic, shut down stock exchanges, cure halitosis, reverse the course of rivers and make elephants fly as sinners are given one last chance to get their act together.
Even Rod Serling couln't have made up a more looney scenario. It is utterly un-Catholic. God's grace is sufficient unto salvation and He denies no sinner access to His Truth, for even an instant, upon an act of authentic contrition. And He gives EVERYONE His True Sign - His Son - every day in the Holy Sacrifice. He is there for everyone in the world.
But then, what percentage of Catholics even bother with THAT Sign, anymore?
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The proof of the truth of a prophecy comes in its fulfilment.
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All of these types of apparitions are perplexing. We read about Garabandal in grade school, and I remember the video of the eucharist appearing on the tongue of the child, Some saw an angel putting it there. I remember them saying the children were going backwards to keep their eye on the blessed Mother. I always wonder what type of witness I sould have been to John the Baptist or our Lord--would I have believed, required more proof like Thomas? Don't know, but it is a good question SSPXBVM
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The local ordinaries have repeatedly condemned it.?
actually, no, no one condemned it at all, but nor ddi they approve it and recent interviews and signs from the bishop now leaning toward the visions......to repeat, no oridnary, esp w/jurisdiction, condemned..
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Garabandal is pure bunk.
The local ordinaries have repeatedly condemned it.
E. Michael Jones, years ago, interviewed one of the fake "visionaries" and she told him she wasn't sure any of it ever even happened since she had a hard time remembering what did happen.
Compare that comment, from the horses mouth, with St. Bernadette or Sister Lucia of Fatima, or her beatified cousins.
This kind of frenetic idiocy, like Medj, Inc., just gives Catholicism a bad name and makes good ( but VERY gullible ) folks look intergalcatically dumb.
Which is, of course, what it intends....
Finally, any number of fake visits from the Great Beyond seem stuck in the same groove about some fantastic "sign" that will stop traffic, shut down stock exchanges, cure halitosis, reverse the course of rivers and make elephants fly as sinners are given one last chance to get their act together.
Even Rod Serling couln't have made up a more looney scenario. It is utterly un-Catholic. God's grace is sufficient unto salvation and He denies no sinner access to His Truth, for even an instant, upon an act of authentic contrition. And He gives EVERYONE His True Sign - His Son - every day in the Holy Sacrifice. He is there for everyone in the world.
But then, what percentage of Catholics even bother with THAT Sign, anymore?
your rant is lumping several dis-similar things together, your Rod Serling comment is uncharitable and if "God's grace is sufficient unto salvation and He denies no sinner access to His Truth, for even an instant, upon an act of authentic contrition. And He gives EVERYONE His True Sign - His Son - every day in the Holy Sacrifice. He is there for everyone in the world.".then we should disregard Fatima and Lourdes, too, and Thorn here does disregard Fatima,so, there ya go....
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The proof of the truth of a prophecy comes in its fulfilment.
true and no contradictory evidence was presented. I have heard the "we dont remember it all and it seems like a dream" comments, but she later retracted this and there was some noted discrepancy in the translations.......she meant "it all is so amazing, it was like a dream" not "not sure, likely a dream"
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I also do not believe in the authenticity of Garabandal, it all seems too sensational. To the best of my knowledge the BVM has never had people running around backwards or even forwards for that matter, they were all conducted in a reverent manner. Did she ever call other visionaries to chase after her? I know that an angel led St. Catherine to the chapel to see the BVM but she certainly didn't go tearing down the hallways backwards to get there!
Marsha
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I also do not believe in the authenticity of Garabandal, it all seems too sensational. To the best of my knowledge the BVM has never had people running around backwards or even forwards for that matter, they were all conducted in a reverent manner. Did she ever call other visionaries to chase after her? I know that an angel led St. Catherine to the chapel to see the BVM but she certainly didn't go tearing down the hallways backwards to get there!
Marsha
Yes. Very good points. I in fact forgot to bring up the sensationalism of it all.
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The proof of the truth of a prophecy comes in its fulfilment.
Yes. Most correct. However, the difficulty lies in the fact the Devil knows something is up. He knows God will punish the world (chastise) and it will come suddenly (so says St. Padre Pio). The message of Garabandal is one that encourages a certain spiritual sloth.... dont worry, God will warn us ahead of time.
Besides, in the aftermath of the Chastisement will it really matter if there was a cross in the sky and we felt special feelings of being sorry? What matters is how we live our lives in the here and now. Are we in the state of grace.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oj6gnAiDKbM&feature=related
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Joey Lamingino was told explicitly by Padre Pio that Garabandal was authentic, as you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1RvmS7NjuU .
Donal Enright, the man interviewed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HeFTR8myfw , was also told that by Padre Pio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxEqRpcBy-o . So really if you believe in Padre Pio then you must believe in Garabandal I'd say.
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Joey Lamingino was told explicitly by Padre Pio that Garabandal was authentic, as you can see here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1RvmS7NjuU .
Donal Enright, the man interviewed here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1HeFTR8myfw , was also told that by Padre Pio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxEqRpcBy-o . So really if you believe in Padre Pio then you must believe in Garabandal I'd say.
St. Padre Pio did not have the luxury of what we have today. The many videos to review and the "messages" to study. In the end it would be an opinion of Padre Pio. It is said that Saint THomas Aquinas didn't have a belief in the Immaculate Conception as it is believed today as dogma. Point being saints are humans and can and will make mistakes. From what little I know I believe Padre Pio never did visit Garabandal. If he had he would surely have been shocked.
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WIth a little bit of patience with this video you can see how they deceived Padre Pio in his old age to say the True Mass while facing the people. Much the same deception could very well have been going on regarding Garabandal.
BTW this video is one day before his death: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qn1y1-nTouM
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Yes I heard that too that Padre Pio did sometimes face the people like this. (I think we should be charitable to a person in extreme pain who can barely walk and for whom crowds of people had travelled, in some cases, thousands of miles to see his expression as he raised the host etc.) But I notice thats a Latin mass and I heard too that he flatly refused to give Holy Communion in the hand.
I think his decision to completely back Garabandal is different to the intellectual decisions and deductions of St Thomas Aquinas. As you say, although very inspired he was only human and could make some mistakes, whereas on the question of whether or not Garabandal is really true or not comes down to maybe some clear supernatural guidance? He was very clear on that on a number of occasions and I believe met Conchita from Garabandal as well. Also after his death the Capuchins got in touch with the Garabandal visionaries to assure them that he saw the 'miracle' before he died.
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No I'd say its authentic alright and the 'warning' is definitely going to happen, maybe within the next 10 or 15 years or so going by the ages of Joey Lamingino and Conchita. (I don't think its going to happen in say a year or two because it talks about things getting very bad before the warning, much worse than things seem now? Even, it seems, sometime after a kind of Communist takeover.)
But thats not to say that Garabandal couldn't get twisted. I was just reading some writings from some modern day visionaries that I have my doubts about, a number of them, and I was struck by how they also talk of a 'warning' happening just like Garabandal and sometimes name that place and sometimes not. I wonder if in fact that the powers that be also believe in Garabandal and will try to wind into the story their own false take on it? In otherwords they could say when you experience this it will be proof of what we told you, in the false visionaries, and here now is our (false) prophet that predicted this and look what else he has to say....(meaning lies). Its just an impression, so I think yes, it is going to happen but no, it is quite right to retain ones reserve when dealing with these supernatural goings on and make sure again that everybody who is talking about it is the real deal. That would certainly include Padre Pio though.
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No I'd say its authentic alright and the 'warning' is definitely going to happen, maybe within the next 10 or 15 years or so going by the ages of Joey Lamingino and Conchita. (I don't think its going to happen in say a year or two because it talks about things getting very bad before the warning, much worse than things seem now? Even, it seems, sometime after a kind of Communist takeover.)
But thats not to say that Garabandal couldn't get twisted. I was just reading some writings from some modern day visionaries that I have my doubts about, a number of them, and I was struck by how they also talk of a 'warning' happening just like Garabandal and sometimes name that place and sometimes not. I wonder if in fact that the powers that be also believe in Garabandal and will try to wind into the story their own false take on it? In otherwords they could say when you experience this it will be proof of what we told you, in the false visionaries, and here now is our (false) prophet that predicted this and look what else he has to say....(meaning lies). Its just an impression, so I think yes, it is going to happen but no, it is quite right to retain ones reserve when dealing with these supernatural goings on and make sure again that everybody who is talking about it is the real deal. That would certainly include Padre Pio though.[/quote
Sounds like you are on the right track only back peddle a bit. It is Garabandal that distorts our Lady's messages of Fatima, La Salette, Akita, etc.
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I know it's right and proper to be sceptical of modern day supernatural aids like this and there are indeed plenty of charlatans out there but I don't know that it's right to be ultra sceptical. We have a Blessed Mother - as Conchita always calls her - in heaven and no doubt she would be anxious to warn us in time about what was really going on in the Church in the 60s. Hence when she says to Conchita right in the middle of Vat II that many Cardinals etc are leading people to hell why would we be so surprised? She is bound to try and warn us?
Well look at it another way. You were asking 'why this era', why is this generation to get this incredible miracle when all others didn't? But actually miracles aren't all that uncommon if you read for example the history of the Irish saints as they brought Christianity back to Western Europe. But they aren't common in the history of Europe after Christianity became established because, I respectfully submit, of two reasons:
1. Because in fact it's better if people believe without having the answer thrust in front of them too overtly, "happy are those who believe although they do not see" as the quote goes, or words to that effect. But that's clearly not working now, people are just not believing.
2. Secondly the people just didn't need those miracles then. Most people were Christian and those that weren't must have been pretty stubborn and kind of deserve their supernatural fate whatever it was.
But now look at the situation, the pagan world is back! A person educated in the public schools and following the ordinary media hardly stands any chance of lifting himself up from the mire. In a way he needs a miracle and in a sense justice should allow him one? A lot of people don't have the kind of religious aids that they had a few years ago - like even a stable upbringing - and maybe then this miracle will even the score?
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It is a cottage industry to put words in the mouth of Padre Pio. I have seen things attributed to him that I am almost certain he never said, such as that "Not many people go to hell." It is said he met Karol Wojytla and predicted, apparently with joy, that he would be Pope. Don't believe that either.
10/1/1981: The same chronicler writes: "Jakov and Vicka had the 'regular' vision. Characteristic of the apparition, the answers were given by the Gospa to the questions by the seers, which someone wrote down. Here are the questions and the answers:
1. Are all the faiths good? Are all the faiths identical? "Before God all the faiths are identical. God governs them like a king in his kingdom... In the world all the faiths are not identical, because the people do not observe the commandments of God, but reject and corrupt them."
The original poster is correct, it's a demonic fake. Never before have there been so many false apparitions, yet so little charity or good works. Everything is sensation, hucksterism, ballyhoo. God has left mankind in confusion that they have brought on themselves by their grotesque distaste for truth.
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I was fortunate to travel to Garbandal with "Joey L. " in 1970. Joey was a spirtual son of St. Padre Pio. His personal conversion by going to confession to St. Pio is remarkable and all too lenghty to include here. To claim that St. Padre Pio was weak in mind or deceived by the events of Garabandal is a slap on this great saints ability to discern good from evil. It was the Saint who advise Joey to go there in the first place and that was at least 7 years before Padre Pio died. The main visionary of Garabandal, Conchita Gonzalas, visited St. Pio before his death. She was named in his will to be given his religious cross after his death.
At no time did these children ever receive the Blessed Sacrement while walking backwards. They always received it upon the tonuge and while kneeling. I might point out that in 1858 Our Lady had Saint Bernadette dig in the mud before the spring bubbled up. People thought she had lost her mind or that the devil was behind her visions.
These apparitions at Garabandal took place during the Vatican Council II. Most important were the two messages given:
OCT.18,1961:
WE MUST MAKE MANY SACRIFICES, PERFORM MUCH PENANCE, AND VISIT THE BLESSED SACREMENT FREQUENTLY. BUT FIRST, WE MUST LEAD GOOD LIVES. IF WE DO NOT, A CHASTISEMENT WILL BEFALL US. THE CUP IS ALREADY FILLING UP, AND IF WE DO NOT CHANGE, A VERY GREAT CHASTISEMENT WILL COME UPON US.
JUNE 18, 1965:
AS MY MESSAGE OF OCTOBER 18 HAS NOT BEEN COMPLIED WITH AND HAS NOT BEEN MADE KNOWN TO THE WORLD, I AM ADVISING YOU THAT THIS IS THE LAST ONE. BEFORE, THE CUP WAS FILLING UP. NOW IT IS FLOWING OVER. MANY CARDINALS, MANY BISHOPS AND MANY PRIESTS ARE ON THE ROAD TO PERDITION AND ARE TAKING MANY SOULS WITH THEM. LESS AND LESS IMPORTANCE IS BEING GIVEN TO THE EUCHARIST. YOU SHOULD TURN THE WARTH OF GOD AWAY FROM YOURSELVES BY YOUR EFFORTS. IF YOU ASK HIS FORGIVENESS WITH SINCERE HEARTS, HE WILL PARDON YOU. I, YOUR MOTHER, THROUGH THE INTERCESSION OF SAINT MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL, ASK YOU TO AMEND YOUR LIVES. YOU ARE NOW RECEIVINGS THE LAST WARNINGS. I LOVE YOU WERY MUCH AND DO NOT WANT YOUR CONDEMNATION. PRAY TO US WITH SINCERITY AND WE WILL GRANT YOUR REQUESTS. YOU SHOULD MAKE MORE SACRIFICES. THINK ABOUT THE PASSION OF JESUS.
In my view, the Chastisement spoken of in the first message is the errors which were promoted during the Council. ( Read the books written by the Archbishop, "I Accuse the Council" or Fr. Wiltgen's, "The Rine Flows Into the Tiber")
Who can deny the truth of the last message about the loss of souls and being led by priests, bishops and cardinals. What greater loss is there than to loose ones soul ? And in closing, one more point regarding the childrens denial of seeing the Blessed Virgin, She had fortold them this would happen. She said you (the children) would deny seeing me. Your confusion will be like the confusion in the Church.
Pray the the Pope and Bishops Consecrate Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary before the beast comes forth !
"ONLY SHE CAN HELP YOU!"
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the most disturbing is the whole backward thing. How the children walked and even ran backward while receiving "communion" on the tongue.
People in the orthodox (schismatic) Churches walk backward when they quit the Church and when they are returning to the pew after receiving The Eucharist so that they are always facing the altar. It is disrespectful to do otherwise. So maybe it is some old custom?
(I just read the first post. )
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Bishop Richard Williamson believes in the Apparitions of Garabandal and has mentioned them several times his public speeches and sermons.
Those who judge them as "pure bunk" or something that any well educated Catholic ought to be able to discern as false should really write to the good Bishop, known for his independent thinking mind, and fearlessness, and ask him why he beleives them to be real.
Clearly he is not put off by the backward walking/running.
Personally I will wait until Joey Lomangino is dead and then write them off. Can't be long now he's well into he 80s.
Looking at the way the world is heading now, however, looks to me that these events MIGHT be just over the horizon. One decent black swan and it is goodbye to the capitalist economy and hello revolution and war. Frankly I'm amazed they've kept the pyramid scheme operating for the last 4 years.
My bag is packed, my maps prepared. If it happens it happens, if it does not we will have to wait for God to sort something else out.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1RvmS7NjuU
Interesting video
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Bishop Richard Williamson believes in the Apparitions of Garabandal and has mentioned them several times his public speeches and sermons.
Those who judge them as "pure bunk" or something that any well educated Catholic ought to be able to discern as false should really write to the good Bishop, known for his independent thinking mind, and fearlessness, and ask him why he beleives them to be real.
Clearly he is not put off by the backward walking/running.
Personally I will wait until Joey Lomangino is dead and then write them off. Can't be long now he's well into he 80s.
Looking at the way the world is heading now, however, looks to me that these events MIGHT be just over the horizon. One decent black swan and it is goodbye to the capitalist economy and hello revolution and war. Frankly I'm amazed they've kept the pyramid scheme operating for the last 4 years.
My bag is packed, my maps prepared. If it happens it happens, if it does not we will have to wait for God to sort something else out.
It is hard to believe God would determine everything based upon "Joey Lomangino." Sounds like one of the deceptions that would come from Medjugore. Perhaps they have the same deceiver?
The events predetermined at Garabandal will most certainly have fulfilment. In so far as the devil has copied our Lady at Fatima, La Salette, Akita, Quito, etc.
It is good to know that if in fact it is true and Bishop Williamson believes so strongly that Garbandal is true at least it isn't a matter of Faith and Morals because we would certainly disagree on this matter. It is said our Lady appeared there over 2000 times. Why? 2 0 0 0 times!! This doesnt give the impression of a mother lovingly warning her children. Rather, it gives the impression of despair. Something that we all know comes from the Devil.
Perhaps one should write the bishop and ask him if he believes and if so why. As for us our communications with him are on other, more important matters. Namely the Catholic Faith. Wouldn't think he'd have alot of time for Garbandal stuff right now.
So lets not wait for "Joey" to die. Look at the facts and think now.
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Better yet read the bible. Matthew 24 versus 7-to the end. Be sure to read the commentaries. It will tell you what Christ told his apostles. The commentaries speak of destructive air, infertility of the earth, famine, and such. But most of all it speaks of the continual sacrifice coming to an end. It also speaks of the liturgy being destroyed and the scriptures and such. So, read the commentaries.
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Bishop Richard Williamson believes in the Apparitions of Garabandal and has mentioned them several times his public speeches and sermons.
Those who judge them as "pure bunk" or something that any well educated Catholic ought to be able to discern as false should really write to the good Bishop, known for his independent thinking mind, and fearlessness, and ask him why he beleives them to be real.
Clearly he is not put off by the backward walking/running.
Personally I will wait until Joey Lomangino is dead and then write them off. Can't be long now he's well into he 80s.
Looking at the way the world is heading now, however, looks to me that these events MIGHT be just over the horizon. One decent black swan and it is goodbye to the capitalist economy and hello revolution and war. Frankly I'm amazed they've kept the pyramid scheme operating for the last 4 years.
My bag is packed, my maps prepared. If it happens it happens, if it does not we will have to wait for God to sort something else out.
It is hard to believe God would determine everything based upon "Joey Lomangino." Sounds like one of the deceptions that would come from Medjugore. Perhaps they have the same deceiver?
The events predetermined at Garabandal will most certainly have fulfilment. In so far as the devil has copied our Lady at Fatima, La Salette, Akita, Quito, etc.
It is good to know that if in fact it is true and Bishop Williamson believes so strongly that Garbandal is true at least it isn't a matter of Faith and Morals because we would certainly disagree on this matter. It is said our Lady appeared there over 2000 times. Why? 2 0 0 0 times!! This doesnt give the impression of a mother lovingly warning her children. Rather, it gives the impression of despair. Something that we all know comes from the Devil.
Perhaps one should write the bishop and ask him if he believes and if so why. As for us our communications with him are on other, more important matters. Namely the Catholic Faith. Wouldn't think he'd have alot of time for Garbandal stuff right now.
So lets not wait for "Joey" to die. Look at the facts and think now.
Joey not only source, there is plenty out there, have looked at it, feel its real, no sense to get bent out of shape, nor debunk it (Vandaler is a pro at that game, though only in politics, never in faith issues) nor go all Protty "bible alone" about end times.....
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I think Garabandal is satanic, a kind of demonic mocking of the real Marian apparitions. I also think Medjugorje is of the same origin. I do not understand why God allows the false apparitions to come out and have a misleading impact on so many lives. The modern Popes are very timid against false apparitions, maybe due to their liberal bias. They should impose their authority and destroy the cults once for all.
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I think Garabandal is satanic, a kind of demonic mocking of the real Marian apparitions.l.
why? what evidence? are there doctrinal issues? statements made contra-doctrine?
Medjugorje-has been condemned by Bishop with authority in that area of world, also the carnival "miracles" are widely docuмented, as are the moral issues w/alelged "visionaires"
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Eleison Comments LVIII, 9th August 2008
La-La-Landslide II
On November 17 of last year Eleison Comments said that the Great Warning prophesied at Garabandal might take place in February or March of this year. That did not happen. One reader asks me why.
The reason is simple. It was not yet the time fixed by Almighty God. When is that time? I do not know. However, I still believe that Garabandal is a sleeping volcano, and I believe it may easily erupt in 2009, because my main reason for taking seriously a few pointers to 2008 was the instability and precariousness of the world situation, which is more unstable and precarious than ever.
The capitalism launched in England by the founding in 1694 of the first Central Bank of a nation is collapsing around our ears. The hurting capitalists who just recently would blast any government that interfered with free enterprise, are now themselves begging the US government to bail out their banks. So capitalism, having made itself „too big to fail“, is now, sure enough, mutating into government control, which, being atheistic and materialistic, amounts to communism!
What will happen then in the next few years, only God knows. But it is easy to imagine inside the USA martial law becoming necessary to maintain a semblance of law and order, and outside the USA the Third World War, which is coming and will be terrible. It may well come soon, because for years now the vile media have been beating the drums of war for an attack on Iran, and as the people become more and more discontented with the collapse of money inside the United States, the temptation for the politicians to distract them with a war outside may become virtually irresistible.
There is much evidence that both collapse and war have long been planned by enemies of God to give them control of the entire world. The only light in which one can grasp the full problem and its correct solution, is the light of God and of our Catholic religion. God is not mocked. Read the Old Testament prophets, especially Jeremiah, and pray up to or over 15 Mysteries a day of the Holy Rosary. Kyrie eleison.
Bishop Richard Williamson
La Reja, Argentia
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The local ordinaries have repeatedly condemned it.?
actually, no, no one condemned it at all, but nor ddi they approve it and recent interviews and signs from the bishop now leaning toward the visions......to repeat, no oridnary, esp w/jurisdiction, condemned..
A few years ago the local bishop looking after Garabandal has opened Garabandal for Catholic pilgrimages. These (public ones) were forbidden before. So indeed there's a kind of shift towards Garabandal concerning the local bishop who's normally responsible for judging it.
This unfortunately is still is no measurement for us traditional Catholics because of the Newchurch, and I don't know what this local bishop thinks about tradition.
But then, already those local authorities who judged Garabandal in a negative way in the past, were also belonging to the Newchurch (which didn't start in 1965 but before), and several traditional Catholics say Garabandal was judged negatively in the past by these authorities because these prophecies oppose the "spirit of Vatican II"...
Personally I've no idea if Garabandal is true or not. I read the prophecies and a nice book about Garabandal by an elder Catholic layman who decided to stay in Garabandal; so if you visit the village you'll meet him for sure and can ask him.
One thing is for sure, too: Garabandal with its serious apocalypse-style prophecies would rather fit into the Lourde-Fatima-line, but not fit to Medjugorje with its Mickey-Mouse-"prophecies"...
I know several excellent traditional Catholic clerics who think Garabandal is true, one being Bishop Williamson.
But since we've got no traditional local Church authorities who could decide finally about Garabandal, we will have to wait and see. If Garabandal was true, we would see "very, very" (© BpF) soon! So, let's fasten Seatbelts!
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Eleison Comments XX, 17 November 2007
Fasten Seatbelts!
Prepare to fasten your seat-belts for the year 2008! It is always risky to announce dates for dramatic events in the future, because if they do not then happen, the doom-dater has only discredited himself. However, there is a triple convergence for next year which constitutes at least an “orange alert.”
First and foremost, there is the pressure building towards a Third World War, which may well be the beginning of the long-deserved chastisement of a globe turning its back on God. On the side of the United States there is an insane pressure group beating the war-drums for an attack upon Iran, when more and more people now know that the disastrous attack upon Iraq was only made possible by fraud (9/11) and lies (WMD). On the side of Russia, President Putin has backed his good reasons for condemning any such attack with the threat to resist it.
But the West’s vile media silence the reasons and step up the war-drums. President Bush announces he wishes to “prevent Iran’s nuclear capacity” before he leaves office – end of 2008 – and in 2007 we see a still mounting economic and financial crisis within the USA which risks presenting him no later than 2008 with a virtually irresistible temptation to “busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels” (Henry IV, Pt II, Act IV, Scene 4 end).
Secondly, two years ago Fr. Paul Kramer quoted in the “Fatima Crusader” a German priest (living) who may be privileged with prophetic gifts from Heaven, and who foretells 2008 as the year for the outbreak of WWIII. (One may look for the whole interesting article at http://www.fatimacrusader.com.) Thirdly, a report comes to us from northern Spain where believably Our Lady appeared in Garabandal many times between 1962 and 1965, which gives March and April of 2008 as the months of the Great Warning and Great Miracle respectively. It may be only another false alert, but it would certainly fit in just before an outbreak of WWIII…
The prophecy from Germany and the report from Spain are worth no more than they are worth (nor less), but the realities from the USA and Russia are for real. It does no harm to take a little more seriously still St. Paul’s abiding exhortation to us to “pray without ceasing” (I Thess. V, 17). Kyrie Eleison.
Bishop Richard Williamson
La Reja, Argentina
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True enough, for me it is authentic, based on the children, messages,etc...but in the end, not a matter for :argue: too much...
Whether the present or past bishop is legit or not is not in my humble brain to discern........too much else..
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Secondly, two years ago Fr. Paul Kramer quoted in the “Fatima Crusader” a German priest (living) who may be privileged with prophetic gifts from Heaven, and who foretells 2008 as the year for the outbreak of WWIII. (One may look for the whole interesting article at http://www.fatimacrusader.com.)
Ah, this German priest with potential prophetic gifts died a short time ago, but he and his vision is very well known in the German-speaking traditional Catholic areas and it matches Alois Irlmaier's visions very well.
But wait, in 2008 there was no WW3? True, but if you watched the world events closely back then, you'll know that by a hair USrael would have started an attack on Iran... It was as close to WW3 as it was during the Cuba crisis in the 1960ies.
But then, also in 2008, in the last moment it "did not happen. One reader asks me why. The reason is simple. It was not yet the time fixed by Almighty God. When is that time? I do not know.
Excellent answer.
And old country lore says: If WW3 didn't start during the last 10 years, then it will never start!
... wait! Country lore? Sorry, I must have mixed up things. This rather sounds like Krah's lore... ;-)
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Perhaps, date was wrong or God forstalled the war and/or Chastisements....
Even credible visionaries might get a date or name, etc wrong here and there.
One topic that has interested me, but lacking in sources and time, have not followed up on, is the possibility that God last 200+ yrs, may have, last minutes, forstalled the events of Marian Apparitions and Apoc. What I mean is that it is possible a baby was born, lets say in 1905 that was slated to be the antichrist, the faithful pray, do their part, the clergy theirs and perhaps, God relented and said "not yet". Consider the encyclicals over this time frame and the warnings from heaven, via Mary.....and the mess THEN in society and moral,etc....Things not rosy, then....
I know that some have said and some debunked the Great King=Prince Otto, and with his death now, he will not be the Great King....Perhaps, thoug, in this thesis, he might have been prepared to be, likely, not to his knowledge...Likely, others in France,etc have been prepared for this role and might be now.....
At some point, the reprieves from heaven will be done, no more and we are in for it......
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Very astute insight Belloc. I seem to recall reading about the Angel of the Apocalypse aka St. Vincent Ferrer that some have speculated that it was because of him that the end of the world was forestalled.
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Bottom line. "Garabandal" is/was an evil "apparition" meant to manipulate and deceive the people. How can one not see that? All the "questionable" actions. IE, walking backwards, 2000 "apparitions", and the message that everything's okay, until you see the great "sign".....
"An evil generation seeks signs and wonders"[/b]
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Please pardon my intrusion in this forum! I do not know anything about Garabandal, nor do I express much interest in it. I also know little about Mejugorge. For this latest, I have participated to some charismatic sessions of this Marian cult, and met with one of two minor visionaries at the San Bruno Church in San Bruno, CA. From this said meeting, I am not convinced that Mejugorge is from Heaven. I also think that Vasula, the principal seer of the Mejugorge cult, is deluded. She acts as a celebrity, a most sure sign of the devil's influence on this person of admittedly good will.
That say, and I fear to irritate you dear brothers for my apparent boasting, but I am knowledgeable on the subject of transportation; apparition; vision and dream. This knowledge is not academic.
This is what I have to say: The devil's activities are more common than the ones' from heaven. The first recorded apparition was made by Satan who, in the form of a serpent, addressed to Eve. A well known transportation was performed by Satan upon Our Lord during His forty days-long fasting in the desert. An other historical transportation was done upon the Prophet Muhammad while this (false) prophet was taken from Arabia to the Temple Mount of Jerusalem. Those are a few of the numerous demonic activities known. The activities coming from heaven are more rare, because of certain criteria.
During either supernatural, or preternatural events there are two parties involved: the spirit, and the man. If it is a preternatural event, the party representing man may be anyone ranging from a holy person to a hardened sinner, because the devil may influence, or attempt to influence any mortal being. During a supernatural event, the party representing man must be a pure and sinless person, and this is why all apparitions from heaven are done upon either children or innocent adults who often are considered "simple-minded". For example during the first apparition of Fatima, the two girls (Lucia and Jacinta) were able to see and to hear Our Lady of the Rosary, while the boy (Francisco) could not see anything at all at the beginning. So then Our Blessed Mother told the girls to ask Francisco to start praying. Francisco started to pray his rosary, and then began to see the Virgin Mary, while still never being able to hear her. Those are the main distinctions between events coming from the devil or from God. It is the purity of the seer that validates the event. There are however some exceptions to this general rule.
At time, God wishes to communicate a particular message that may be time-sensitive to a specific individual who may not meet the criteria of purity stated above. For example, an angel addressed three times to Blessed Joseph in the form of a dream, because dreams do not demand the same standards of purity of soul. The first of those three dreams was to tell the husband of the Virgin Mary to not divorce her, and also to tell him that the name of the expected child (in the womb of his virgin spouse) was Jesus. The second dream to Blessed Joseph was to tell him to take refuge to Egypt in order to protect the Holy Family from the Massacre of the Innocents, and the third (dream) was to tell him to return from Egypt. Those dreams contained specific messages that were time-sensitive, as well as being very accurate. Chaste Blessed Joseph was certainly holy, but might not have had sufficient purity of soul at those moments to be given such vital messages but through dreams.
The reason that I intruded in this forum, is to comment upon two contested posting titled A VISION OF BLESSED JOSEPH and A DREAM OF THE VIRGIN MARY.
The "Vision" narrated was like a silent movie. Only Blessed Joseph was identified by an admittedly repentant sinner, while a woman and her child were not identified, but were just a logical deduction to be Mary and Jesus. This said "Vision" might be the best that Heaven could do in order to convey a time-sensitive image of the apocalyptic "woman and her child taking refuge in the desert, and flying away from the Dragon" to a person able to communicate.
The "Dream" was of the Virgin Mary. The person named Dreamer in this narrative, is no-saint, and may be this is why the Blessed Virgin Mary did not appear to Dreamer with all the splendor expected from the Queen of Heaven and Earth. The Virgin Mary did not give her name either, but gave specific instructions and spoke about how important prayers are. She also made understandable that she was to remain with us during hard-time. Once again there was a time-sensitive message given in a dream, which is the lesser form of activity from the world of the invisible, to a non-saintly person who nevertheless was able to communicate.
I believe that bringing this issue of A VISION OF BLESSED JOSEPH and A DREAM OF THE VIRGIN MARY to this forum of "Garabandal" is proper, because they also relate to Tribulations and End Time. Please consider me to be just a writing hand willing to report what the regular clergy is cowardly hiding.
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Please pardon my intrusion in this forum! I do not know anything about Garabandal, nor do I express much interest in it. I also know little about Mejugorge. For this latest, I have participated to some charismatic sessions of this Marian cult, and met with one of two minor visionaries at the San Bruno Church in San Bruno, CA. From this said meeting, I am not convinced that Mejugorge is from Heaven. I also think that Vasula, the principal seer of the Mejugorge cult, is deluded. She acts as a celebrity, a most sure sign of the devil's influence on this person of admittedly good will.
That say, and I fear to irritate you dear brothers for my apparent boasting, but I am knowledgeable on the subject of transportation; apparition; vision and dream. This knowledge is not academic.
This is what I have to say: The devil's activities are more common than the ones' from heaven. The first recorded apparition was made by Satan who, in the form of a serpent, addressed to Eve. A well known transportation was performed by Satan upon Our Lord during His forty days-long fasting in the desert. An other historical transportation was done upon the Prophet Muhammad while this (false) prophet was taken from Arabia to the Temple Mount of Jerusalem. Those are a few of the numerous demonic activities known. The activities coming from heaven are more rare, because of certain criteria.
During either supernatural, or preternatural events there are two parties involved: the spirit, and the man. If it is a preternatural event, the party representing man may be anyone ranging from a holy person to a hardened sinner, because the devil may influence, or attempt to influence any mortal being. During a supernatural event, the party representing man must be a pure and sinless person, and this is why all apparitions from heaven are done upon either children or innocent adults who often are considered "simple-minded". For example during the first apparition of Fatima, the two girls (Lucia and Jacinta) were able to see and to hear Our Lady of the Rosary, while the boy (Francisco) could not see anything at all at the beginning. So then Our Blessed Mother told the girls to ask Francisco to start praying. Francisco started to pray his rosary, and then began to see the Virgin Mary, while still never being able to hear her. Those are the main distinctions between events coming from the devil or from God. It is the purity of the seer that validates the event. There are however some exceptions to this general rule.
At time, God wishes to communicate a particular message that may be time-sensitive to a specific individual who may not meet the criteria of purity stated above. For example, an angel addressed three times to Blessed Joseph in the form of a dream, because dreams do not demand the same standards of purity of soul. The first of those three dreams was to tell the husband of the Virgin Mary to not divorce her, and also to tell him that the name of the expected child (in the womb of his virgin spouse) was Jesus. The second dream to Blessed Joseph was to tell him to take refuge to Egypt in order to protect the Holy Family from the Massacre of the Innocents, and the third (dream) was to tell him to return from Egypt. Those dreams contained specific messages that were time-sensitive, as well as being very accurate. Chaste Blessed Joseph was certainly holy, but might not have had sufficient purity of soul at those moments to be given such vital messages but through dreams.
The reason that I intruded in this forum, is to comment upon two contested posting titled A VISION OF BLESSED JOSEPH and A DREAM OF THE VIRGIN MARY.
The "Vision" narrated was like a silent movie. Only Blessed Joseph was identified by an admittedly repentant sinner, while a woman and her child were not identified, but were just a logical deduction to be Mary and Jesus. This said "Vision" might be the best that Heaven could do in order to convey a time-sensitive image of the apocalyptic "woman and her child taking refuge in the desert, and flying away from the Dragon" to a person able to communicate.
The "Dream" was of the Virgin Mary. The person named Dreamer in this narrative, is no-saint, and may be this is why the Blessed Virgin Mary did not appear to Dreamer with all the splendor expected from the Queen of Heaven and Earth. The Virgin Mary did not give her name either, but gave specific instructions and spoke about how important prayers are. She also made understandable that she was to remain with us during hard-time. Once again there was a time-sensitive message given in a dream, which is the lesser form of activity from the world of the invisible, to a non-saintly person who nevertheless was able to communicate.
I believe that bringing this issue of A VISION OF BLESSED JOSEPH and A DREAM OF THE VIRGIN MARY to this forum of "Garabandal" is proper, because they also relate to Tribulations and End Time. Please consider me to be just a writing hand willing to report what the regular clergy is cowardly hiding.
Our Lord appeared to Saul who later became Paul. Was he innocent at the time? Just skimmed through the post, sorry to say, unapproved dreams, apparitions, etc. should have no place in a serious Crusader for Catholic Tradition in our present crisis. A crisis which will come to an end with Our Lady's triumph.
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Walking backwards up a rocky hill with their heads tilted all the way back? Seems diabolical.
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Bishop Richard Williamson believes in the Apparitions of Garabandal and has mentioned them several times his public speeches and sermons.
Those who judge them as "pure bunk" or something that any well educated Catholic ought to be able to discern as false should really write to the good Bishop, known for his independent thinking mind, and fearlessness, and ask him why he beleives them to be real.
Clearly he is not put off by the backward walking/running.
Personally I will wait until Joey Lomangino is dead and then write them off. Can't be long now he's well into he 80s.
Looking at the way the world is heading now, however, looks to me that these events MIGHT be just over the horizon. One decent black swan and it is goodbye to the capitalist economy and hello revolution and war. Frankly I'm amazed they've kept the pyramid scheme operating for the last 4 years.
My bag is packed, my maps prepared. If it happens it happens, if it does not we will have to wait for God to sort something else out.
Hello ggreg,
Some news from Joey below :
November 13, 2012
Dear Friends,
Unobserved on a busy street corner in Paris, Robert Turner heard the voice of the Risen Christ. Those words that summoned Saint Matthew resounded in his soul, "COME FOLLOW ME."
The son of an American doctor, raised in France between the wars, Robert never fully acquired the Episcopalian tradition of his family and was received into the Roman Catholic Church as a young man. A gifted student, a graduate of the elite French schools, he left two years into an advanced degree in physics at Harvard to return to Paris on the eve of the Second World War.
The shock of the sudden military defeat and collapse of the French government directed him to the service of the transcendent and infinite God. He joined the Dominican order in 1942 and was ordained a priest in 1945. A man of two cultures, he was a natural missionary and diplomat and the Order sent him to Iraq for the propagation of the faith in that ancient society.
The mid nineteen sixties found him back in France, in the Pyrenees, serving the migrants shuttling back and forth from Spain. He was very welcome in the company of the professors of the seminary in Tarragona where he came across the first reports of the startling apparition taking place high in the mountains.
He was about to embark upon another journey or as he later called it, "a spiritual adventure, one of the most beautiful of the century."
As much as it piqued his curiosity, the physician's son, the reflective observer, the careful examiner was not one to be swept away by allegations of mystical rapture. He required evidence. Removing himself physically from the apparitions, he began to compile thousands of pages of docuмents verified with great care, the transcripts of eyewitness testimony of those who had been to the village and could not deny what they had seen.
Father Turner's personal investigations lead him to the great Father Materne Laffineur, author of Star on the Mountain ,whose work uncovered the true importance of Garabandal for many. He allied with the Abbe Alfred Combe, father of the promotion in France. It is to these three men, Laffineur, Combe and Turner that the global Garabandal community owes many thanks. These priests of France faithfully collected the first impress and worked out the intellectual framework that would sustain the cause through the very long night of doubt.
Father Francois Turner was the indispensable man of the Garabandal movement. A mentor to the international promotion, he moved easily between the American and European centers coordinating efforts, collaborating with other authors, and translating ideas everywhere he went. In a time of skepticism he wrote in favor of the apparitions and lectured insightfully on Garabandal around the world.
When his friend, Juan Antonio del Val Gallo of holy memory, was ordained Bishop of Santander, Father Turner worked in a spirit of fraternity to lift the lingering suspicion in the chancery and closed the breach which had opened with the global promotion. He was known to the Vatican and served as an informal liaison with Rome. Since his death in 1995, no one of such stature has risen to replace him.
Our Lady Teaches at Garabandal remains the only complete treatment of the apparitions by Father Turner in English, a compendium of anecdotes which he uses to illustrate the catechism of personal piety and virtue taught by the Most Blessed Virgin Mary during her five year visitation to the mountain village. He anchors these lessons soundly in sacred scripture emphasizing the continuity of the instruction of the Virgin and the acts of the visionaries with the counsel of the Old and New Testament.
Father Turner agreed with the American priest Joseph Pelletier A.A. who saw the apparitions as a preemptive inoculation against the crisis advancing in the wake of the Second Vatican Council. A speculative theology which came forward in those days directly challenged areas of settled Church teaching; the centrality of the Eucharist and the doctrine of the Real Presence, the efficacy of Marian Intercession and the assistance of the Holy Angels, the spirit of mortification and of sacrifices offered in reparation for sin, traditional devotional prayer -the Rosary- as a powerful aid to growth in the spiritual life. All of this is reaffirmed at Garabandal in a most astonishing way - not as dead concepts but as the living yet invisible reality.
The Fathers agreed that the crisis aimed at disrupting the priesthood, causing divisions among priests, casting doubt on the sublime dignity of their sacrificial vocation and ambiguity about their venerable place among Christians. Of vital concern to Father Turner was the sanctification of his brother priests. Our Lady at Garabandal requested the faithful fast and pray for priests, set apart by their distinction to be leaders of the Church. Our Lady told the visionaries that saintly priests save many souls as their actions are studied and imitated by many.
As we begin the Year of Faith, our Holy Father encourages us to return to the letter of the Second Vatican Council. Throughout his work, Father Turner quotes frequently from Presbyterorum ordinis, a docuмent very much in harmony with the Message of Garabandal. It remains a valuable text for priests seeking to live saintly lives and reminds the faithful, from the heart of the Church, of their sacred obligation to support the spiritual work of priests by prayer.
During the course of the apparitions, when confronted by disbelief, the young visionaries turned to the Virgin for consolation. Our Lady assured them that the Great Miracle set to occur in their village at a future date would be the overwhelming proof of the supernatural origin of the events. This topic was of great interest to Father Turner and he derived a series of contingencies which he thought must precede the Miracle.
First, knowledge of the Miracle must be broadcast around the world through the mass media. Having died before the advent of the Internet, Father Turner would have been pleased by the great strides made in the last decade using this open form of communication. In just the past four months visitors from over 126 countries have come to the website of the New York Center. We are excited to announce a new initiative through the content sharing website YouTube which will broadcast the 1996 docuмentary The Message of Garabandal on line in all twenty seven languages.
Next, the hearts and minds of peoples must be purified by the Warning, which will prompt conversion and prayer. As miracles are the product of belief, a singular grace will be given to those who will see or know the Great Miracle so as to be properly disposed to more closely encounter Almighty God. The Holy Father will also experience the Miracle wherever he happens to be.
We remember our friend, Father Francois Turner O.P. a holy priest, a man of great courtesy, a scholar in the best tradition of Dominican Scholasticism, and a champion of Our Lady of Mount Carmel de Garabandal.
In Union of Prayer,
The Workers of Our Lady of Mount Carmel de Garabandal
Lindenhurst, NY USA
Aviso
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Bishop Williamson was interviewed by Bernard Jansen from Triumph Communications about Garabandal.
His Excellency acknowleged that many people did not believe in the apparations, but here is why he said he believed it was authentic:
1. The timing of the apparitions: Garabandal started at the beginning and ended at the end of Vatican II.
Also, put this timing into context with Pope John XXIII's refusal to release
the Third Secret of Fatima in 1960.
2. What was said: The apparitions mentioned corruption within the Church hiearchy and of a chastisement. These were "Third Secret" type details.
So, the Mother of God would not leave her children without a warning.
I've tried to read the following book on Garanbandal, but it appeared to me to be poorly written and hard to read. It was also endorsed by Pope Paul VI.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51O5tdgzmKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
I think the freemasons are expert at putting out disinformation on Holy people and events. For example, Holy Therese Neumann of Barvaria was completely
maligned by the freemasons in Germany and the US.
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When the Pope will travel to Russia to try to stop the War, all should start.
Aviso
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Let's see: It's been 18 months since mid-December 2012, and there hasn't been any traveling of any pope to Russia attempting to stop any war.
But we HAVE had the pope of 2012 abdicate and a new pope elected since then. Is that what is meant by "all should start?"
If so, what has 'started'? Chaos? Jesuit-isms to top all heretofore Jesuit-isms?
Who am I to judge? [regarding the culpability of public pertinacious Sodomites]
I believe in God but not in a Catholic God.
[Since it was spoken it could have been, I believe in god but not in a catholic god.]
(The Newcanonizations of John XXIII and John Paul II, April 27th, 2014, Quasimodo Sunday)
Everyone has a right to baptism, even aliens from outer space.
Pope Paul VI will be beatified on October 19th, 2014 [the 27th anniversary of Black Monday].
Francis seems to have some kind of affinity to "27" -- that would have been the number of years that JPII had been pope, if he had not finished his final year. Is Francis trying to finish what JPII was unable to accomplish???
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False.
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I read where the Vatican Council 2 them in session would be the
greatest council.
That message turned out not to be true. No council of the Catholic
Church would leave in it's wake so much confusion, lost of faith,
schisms and heresies everywhere.
FALSE, BOGUS.