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Author Topic: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind  (Read 4937 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
« Reply #30 on: October 14, 2023, 02:00:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on October 14, 2023, 01:12:17 PM

    Is it necessary for ALL nations to BE Catholic or just that the Gospel has been preached to ALL nations?  Or just if there is one Catholic living in every nation?

    Scripture is clear: preached. Mt 24:14
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    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
    « Reply #31 on: October 14, 2023, 02:27:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: DecemRationis on October 14, 2023, 02:00:06 PM

    Scripture is clear: preached. Mt 24:14
    Yes.  Which should explain why Drolo's comments are irrelevant (I don't mean that in a mean way Drolo): the Apostasy doesn't have to wait until all countries are "Christian".
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    Offline Drolo

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    Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
    « Reply #32 on: October 14, 2023, 02:38:37 PM »
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    • Yes, I believe that we are in the Great Apostasy, andi know what Mt says. I just thinked that someone don't believe that because what I said before. 
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    Online TheRealMcCoy

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    Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
    « Reply #33 on: October 14, 2023, 02:42:36 PM »
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    • While in agreement with your concerns I disagree with your conclusion. You will not have doubts about The Great Apostasy because the greater part of mankind will believe themselves to be God. This is the hallmark of Anrichrist--man in the place of God.
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    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
    « Reply #34 on: October 14, 2023, 02:48:49 PM »
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    • Is it really possible that in this day and age there's someone that has never heard of Christianity or the Catholic Church?  Surely the Gospel has been preached to, and throughout, the world.

    Vatican II is definitely the public 180 turning away from what preceded it.  I'd contend it was the beginning/signal that the world had entered a distinct era - the Great Apostasy - and the Fatima miracle was the announcement that it was near.
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    Offline Drolo

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    Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
    « Reply #35 on: October 14, 2023, 02:52:35 PM »
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    • Quote from: TheRealMcCoy on October 14, 2023, 02:42:36 PM
    While in agreement with your concerns I disagree with your conclusion. You will not have doubts about The Great Apostasy because the greater part of mankind will believe themselves to be God. This is the hallmark of Anrichrist--man in the place of God.
    The Antichrist will pretend to be God, yes. 2 Thessalonians 2. But. Will the mankind do it? What is the source?
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    Offline Drolo

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    Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
    « Reply #36 on: October 14, 2023, 03:00:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiracleOfTheSun on October 14, 2023, 02:48:49 PM
    Is it really possible that in this day and age there's someone that has never heard of Christianity or the Catholic Church?  Surely the Gospel has been preached to, and throughout, the world.

    Vatican II is definitely the public 180 turning away from what preceded it.  I'd contend it was the beginning/signal that the world had entered a distinct era - the Great Apostasy - and the Fatima miracle was the announcement that it was near.
    North Sentinel, but is a tiny irrelevant exception, the Gospel has been preached throughout the world.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
    « Reply #37 on: October 14, 2023, 03:03:56 PM »
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    • The word "apostasy" means a falling away, that is what Scripture says. To leave the Faith to practice heresy is also an apostasy in common speech.

    I heard a story once about someone who asked an old timer traditional priest in the 70s or 80s if he thought they were living through the great apostasy. He said, "Do you know anyone who thinks we aren't?"

    Before Vatican 2, Catholics composed about 30% of the human race. Now they compose about .02% of the human race (I estimate the trad population at around 2 million, which I think is optimistic, though). And that drop took place in a decade or two.

    If that isn't the great falling away, then I wonder what it will look like when it happens. :trollface:
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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
    « Reply #38 on: October 14, 2023, 04:34:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on October 14, 2023, 09:58:04 AM
    How many of them have made a public abjuration of error?

    You are assuming that which you have not proven, that is, that they are all public manifest formal heretics.
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
    « Reply #39 on: October 14, 2023, 04:42:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on October 14, 2023, 04:34:33 PM
    You are assuming that which you have not proven, that is, that they are all public manifest formal heretics.

    Canon 188.4 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law:

    There are certain causes which effect the tacit (silent) resignation of an office, which resignation is accepted in advance by operation of the law, and hence is effective without any declaration.

    These causes are… (4) publicly defects from the Catholic faith.

    https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2022/10/22/kennedy-halls-sedevacantist-wager/


    Did they not publicly defect from the Catholic faith?

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    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



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    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
    « Reply #40 on: October 14, 2023, 04:45:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on October 14, 2023, 04:42:10 PM
    Canon 188.4 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law:

    There are certain causes which effect the tacit (silent) resignation of an office, which resignation is accepted in advance by operation of the law, and hence is effective without any declaration.

    These causes are… (4) publicly defects from the Catholic faith.

    You have not proven that they have publicly defected from the Catholic Faith.  This requires proof of pertinacity or the joining of a sect that is formally established and known to be non-Catholic.
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
    « Reply #41 on: October 14, 2023, 05:05:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on October 14, 2023, 04:45:26 PM
    You have not proven that they have publicly defected from the Catholic Faith.  This requires proof of pertinacity or the joining of a sect that is formally established and known to be non-Catholic.
    .

    If you think people in the Novus Ordo church have not defected from the Catholic Faith, then could you please explain the nature and purpose of the traditional Catholic world?
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
    « Reply #42 on: October 14, 2023, 05:06:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: Miser Peccator on October 14, 2023, 11:24:57 AM
    I don't know.  Is he exempt?

    Did he make an abjuration of error?

    No, +Lefebvre was no apostate, nor were ALL the bishops who signed the docuмents.  Some of them simply didn't adhere to the errors/heresies in Vatican II because they didn't understand them to be there.  They probably viewed a few things as erroneous, such as Religious Liberty and the like, but they didn't completely understand what was in the docuмents.  To this day, you have folks like Athanasius Schneider concluding that you had only one or two sentences that were not "reconcilable" with Tradition.  Michael Davies said the same thing.  +Fellay thinks it's more like 5%.  Some conservative Novus Ordites will claim (and believe) that 100% of it is reconcilable with Tradition.  Errors like Religious Liberty, moreover, do not rise to the level of apostasy.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
    « Reply #43 on: October 14, 2023, 05:07:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Yeti on October 14, 2023, 05:05:57 PM
    .

    If you think people in the Novus Ordo church have not defected from the Catholic Faith, then could you please explain the nature and purpose of the traditional Catholic world?

    You fail to make the distinction between the Conciliar Church being objectively in defection and "people in the Novus Ordo," who may for one reason or another be in material error only.
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    Offline Miser Peccator

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    Re: VII Was The Great Apostasy Change My Mind
    « Reply #44 on: October 14, 2023, 05:10:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Catholic Knight on October 14, 2023, 04:45:26 PM
    You have not proven that they have publicly defected from the Catholic Faith.  This requires proof of pertinacity or the joining of a sect that is formally established and known to be non-Catholic.


    They signed docuмents which are a public defection of the Catholic Faith and they didn't make a public abjuration of error.

    If I were to take out an ad in the Times and post that 

    "Muslims and Catholics worship together the one true god who will judge mankind on the last day"

    any good Traditional priest would require me to make a public abjuration of error before receiving the sacraments again.


    Pope Leo XIII declared in his Encyclical, Satis Cognitum, June 29, 1896:

    St. Augustine notes that other heresies may spring up, to a single one of which, should any one give his assent, he is by the very fact cut off from Catholic unity. 
    “No one who merely disbelieves in all (these heresies) can for that reason regard himself as a Catholic or call himself one. For there may be or may arise some other heresies, which are not set out in this work of ours, and, if any one holds to one single one of these he is not a Catholic” (S. Augustinus, De Haeresibus, n. 88)…
    In this wise, all cause for doubting being removed, can it be lawful for anyone to reject any one of those truths without by the very fact falling into heresy? without separating himself from the Church? – without repudiating in one sweeping act the whole of Christian teaching? For such is the nature of faith that nothing can be more absurd than to accept some things and reject others.”
    https://stevensperay.wordpress.com/2022/10/22/kennedy-halls-sedevacantist-wager/



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    I exposed AB Vigano's public meetings with Crowleyan Satanist Dugin so I ask protection on myself family friends priest, under the Blood of Jesus Christ and mantle of the Blessed Virgin Mary! If harm comes to any of us may that embolden the faithful to speak out all the more so Catholics are not deceived.



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