They did not necessarily knowingly, consciously, and willingly sign docuмents that were a public defection of the Catholic Faith.  Once again, you are making a blanket statement.

Each and every individual did not necessarily......

  These quotes from Archbishop Lefebvre show that the council docuмents were purposely misleading and were signed by many in good faith and good will. This ambiguity and intentionally misleading wording of the council docuмents is proof that these docuмents are not from the infallible magisterium of the Catholic Church. In the biography by Bishop T. De Mallerais, on page 382 we read that in February, 1966, the Archbishop was planning to publish a bulletin with analysis in favor of "A sound interpretation of the Council". 

• “…it is nonetheless certain that the Council was deflected from its purposes by a group of conspirators and that it is impossible for us to take any part in this conspiracy, despite the fact that there may be many satisfactory declarations in Vatican II. The good texts have served as cover to get those texts which are snares, equivocal, and denuded of meaning, accepted and passed.” (from I Accuse the Council)
• • “Rome has lost the Faith, my dear friends. Rome is in apostasy. It is not just words, it is not just words in the air that I say to you. It is the truth. Rome is in apostasy. One cannot have confidence any more in this world. He [the pope] has left the Church; they have left the Church; they are leaving the Church; It is sure, sure, sure! I do not say that the pope is not the pope, but I do not say either that you cannot say that the pope is not the pope”. (Archbishop Lefebvre, Retreat Conference, September 4, 1987)

  It seems that many who signed, intended to sign with the traditional meaning and context as their reason and not with heretical intentions.

It seems that many who signed, intended to sign with the traditional meaning and context as their reason and not with heretical intentions.

I don't see how that can be taken in a "traditional sense". 

Is that found anywhere in Catholic Tradition?


Whether the statement comes from an infallible or non-infallible source

it's not something a Catholic can sign without consequences.

The consequence is public apostasy from the Faith.


Lefebvre was clearly against the council so did he at some point he make a public abjuration of his error?

To give the benefit of doubt. Can it be said that the council docuмents were similar to terms and conditions that no one ever reads?

I.e that the heretic statements were hidden/glossed over?

I kind of feel a little responsible for this thread since I'm the one that brought up the minority opinion in another thread.

Quote from: EWPJ on October 14, 2023, 11:20:48 PM

I've read a lot of material on this, sorry I won't have many sources, I'm terrible at that, I read so many things and never archive or remember where I got them or read them to reference later, that being said, if you don't want to buy what I'm selling then I understand, I will try to find some of the sources where I got all this. 

Firstly, I'm a strong believer in the Catholic Restoration that will take place and the 6th Age of The Church, Reign of Mary and the resurgence of The Catholic Monarchy, the Greatest Ecuмenical Council and Holy Popes, etc.  I know there's links to a lot of this right here on Cathinfo so I won't source those but there's topics on it.  There's a lot of prophecy about this.  I'm aware they're not infallible, but there is a lot of supporting evidence for this as well besides this.  Miser I've seen your sources trying to refute this but I disagree with them. 

Secondly, The Great Apostasy makes more sense in a context if basically the entire world, after converting to the True Faith, then go apostate.  Would it not be a much greater apostasy if 95% of the world is Catholic and then 90% apostasize and side with Antichrist?  In this time and past history, at the height of the Middle Ages/Christendom maybe only 30% of the world was actually Catholic and even though The Faith spread, it probably never was higher than this number, and that number is quite generous considering Protestant Revolt, spread of Islam, Paganism, Atheism, Modernism, etc. 

By the time of Antichrist there will be 2 religions.  The True Catholic one and Luciferianism/Satanism, this is one of the reasons why there will be no excuse for those who take The Mark.  There will be no more Moslems, Protestants, etc. Basically the entire world is going to convert to The True Faith before THE Antichrist comes out into the world view.  Why the big change is not the scope of this post and can be speculated. 

Thirdly, the Book of Apocalypse references monarchs quite often, this only makes sense (technically speaking) if there was a resurgence of a world monarchal structure.  I understand Sacred Scripture is not always super technical and is sometimes figurative.

Fourthly, what a lot of Church Fathers explain about the end times and Apocalypse is not going on
at this time. The two events/periods (Great Apostasy and Apocalypse) coincide in Sacred Scripture, we don't have all of that tied together yet.  Kind of a side point, but according to them, the world will end very shortly after death of Antichrist (within days I believe is what is most said), I think both of these points are unanimous although I'm not 100% certain on that point, which if this is the case, refutes any supposed Antichrists in these or recent times as a lot of other things need to happen before that (Enoch, Elias, the Trumpets, Antichrist making people take The Mark, etc.)

I know some of the books I read were Reign of Antichrist by Rev. Culleton, Antichrist by Dupont, Book of Destiny, The Book of Apocalypse, and reading various Church Fathers on the topic and many other things.  Sorry for my terrible sourcing. 

Personally I think the enemies of God are trying to institute all of this now (Full on Beast System, etc.) to get ready for Antichrist but I think the 3 Days of Darkness will wipe out most of the enemies before they fully implement their system to where a resurgence of The True Faith can flourish like never before.

St. John Eudes states in his book “The Life and the Kingdom of Jesus Christ In Christian Souls”: pray especially for those who will have to suffer the persecution of the Antichrist at the end of the world for it will be the most cruel and horrible persecutions.

BUT THEN in another book called “The Admirable Heart of Mary”  he goes on to explain that with the defeat of the Antichrist shall come the most glorious Triumphant period of the Church!

It goes as follows:


All the holy Fathers (16) agree that after the death of antichrist

the whole world will be converted,

and although some of them assert that the world will last but a few days after his death, while others say a few months, some authorities insist that it will continue to exist many years after. St. Catherine of Siena, St. Vincent Ferrer, St. Francis of Paula and a number of other saints have predicted this ultimate universal conversion. (16) .

Dionysius the Carthusian in cap. 3, Epist. 1 adTher.; Cornelius a Lapide in cap. 2, Epist. ad Rom. vers. 15. The Admirable Heart of Mary pg 319

“The apostasy of the city of Rome  from the vicar of Christ

and its destruction by Antichrist may be thoughts very new to many Catholics, that I think it well to recite the text of theologians of greatest repute.

First Malvenda, who writes expressly on the subject, states as the opinion of Ribera, Gaspar Melus, Biegas, Suarrez, Bellarmine and Bosius that

Rome shall apostatize from the Faith drive away the Vicar of Christ

and return to its ancient paganism.  (MP: which has happened)

…Then the Church shall be scattered, driven into the wilderness, and shall be for a time, as it was in the beginning, invisible; hidden in catacombs, in dens, in mountains, in lurking places; for a time it shall be swept, as it were from the face of the earth.

Such is the universal testimony of the Fathers of the early Church.”- Henry Edward Cardinal Manning, The Present Crisis of the Holy See, 1861, London: Burns and Lambert, pp. 88-90) 

2Thess 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

99% of the hierarchy revolted against the First Commandment and the Sacrifice of Jesus at VII creating a false religion in opposition to the Catholic Faith.

They denied the Father and the Son and became antichrists.

Since then fake popes, JPII, Benedict and Jorge have been publicly

 worshipping pagan idols.

I thought this verse referred to the damned. I am also concerned with the requirements for being damned.

Is 'and' here mean and or or? I.e if one adores the beast is he damned? Or must he also adore his image and receive the mark/number/name? (What ever that means)

I kind of feel a little responsible for this thread since I'm the one that brought up the minority opinion in another thread.

I've read a lot of material on this, sorry I won't have many sources, I'm terrible at that, I read so many things and never archive or remember where I got them or read them to reference later, that being said, if you don't want to buy what I'm selling then I understand, I will try to find some of the sources where I got all this. 

Firstly, I'm a strong believer in the Catholic Restoration that will take place and the 6th Age of The Church, Reign of Mary and the resurgence of The Catholic Monarchy, the Greatest Ecuмenical Council and Holy Popes, etc.  I know there's links to a lot of this right here on Cathinfo so I won't source those but there's topics on it.  There's a lot of prophecy about this.  I'm aware they're not infallible, but there is a lot of supporting evidence for this as well besides this.  Miser I've seen your sources trying to refute this but I disagree with them. 

Secondly, The Great Apostasy makes more sense in a context if basically the entire world, after converting to the True Faith, then go apostate.  Would it not be a much greater apostasy if 95% of the world is Catholic and then 90% apostasize and side with Antichrist?  In this time and past history, at the height of the Middle Ages/Christendom maybe only 30% of the world was actually Catholic and even though The Faith spread, it probably never was higher than this number, and that number is quite generous considering Protestant Revolt, spread of Islam, Paganism, Atheism, Modernism, etc. 

By the time of Antichrist there will be 2 religions.  The True Catholic one and Luciferianism/Satanism, this is one of the reasons why there will be no excuse for those who take The Mark.  There will be no more Moslems, Protestants, etc. Basically the entire world is going to convert to The True Faith before THE Antichrist comes out into the world view.  Why the big change is not the scope of this post and can be speculated. 

Thirdly, the Book of Apocalypse references monarchs quite often, this only makes sense (technically speaking) if there was a resurgence of a world monarchal structure.  I understand Sacred Scripture is not always super technical and is sometimes figurative.

Fourthly, what a lot of Church Fathers explain about the end times and Apocalypse is not going on
at this time. The two events/periods (Great Apostasy and Apocalypse) coincide in Sacred Scripture, we don't have all of that tied together yet.  Kind of a side point, but according to them, the world will end very shortly after death of Antichrist (within days I believe is what is most said), I think both of these points are unanimous although I'm not 100% certain on that point, which if this is the case, refutes any supposed Antichrists in these or recent times as a lot of other things need to happen before that (Enoch, Elias, the Trumpets, Antichrist making people take The Mark, etc.)

I know some of the books I read were Reign of Antichrist by Rev. Culleton, Antichrist by Dupont, Book of Destiny, The Book of Apocalypse, and reading various Church Fathers on the topic and many other things.  Sorry for my terrible sourcing. 

Personally I think the enemies of God are trying to institute all of this now (Full on Beast System, etc.) to get ready for Antichrist but I think the 3 Days of Darkness will wipe out most of the enemies before they fully implement their system to where a resurgence of The True Faith can flourish like never before.

 

When, I ask, was the Church of God ever in a weaker condition, in a feebler state in the eyes of men, and in this natural order, than it is now? And from whence, I ask, is deliverance to come? Is there on earth any power to intervene? Is there any king, prince, or potentate, that has the power to interpose either his will or his sword for the protection of the Church? Not one; and it is foretold it should be so. Neither need we desire it, for the will of God seems to be otherwise. But there is One Power which will destroy all antagonists; there is One Person who will break down and smite small as the dust of the summer threshing-floor all the enemies of the Church, for it is He who will consume His enemies “with the Spirit of His mouth,” and destroy them “with the brightness of His coming.” It seems as if the Son of God were jealous lest anyone should vindicate His authority. He has claimed the battle to Himself; He has taken up the gage which has been cast down against Him; and prophecy is plain and explicit that the last overthrow of evil will be His; that it will be wrought by no man, but by the Son of God; that all the nations of the world may know that He, and He alone, is King, and that He, and He alone, is God.



Manning, Archbishop Henry. The Present Crisis of the Holy See . Desert Will Flower iPress. Kindle Edition.

And then that wicked one shall be revealed whom the Lord Jesus shall kill with the spirit of his mouth; and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming, him,